Do you have to be immoral to enjoy porn?

Do you have to be immoral to enjoy porn? Or put another way, are porn and morality mutually exclusive? A simple question, how do you all feel?

B.

gb2000ie said:

Do you have to be immoral to enjoy porn? Or put another way, are porn and morality mutually exclusive? A simple question, how do you all feel?

B.

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Morality is a value judgement created by a given society with values common to that group. What is moral for one guy in one country, may be considered immoral elsewhere.

A great example is the age of sexual consent laws. In North America, it is generally age 16 for the teenage person, but not if the sex is with someone over 18. Confusing. In some parts of Europe, a person over age 14 may consent to sex and the regs are a bit muddled as to the legality of a person over 18 coupling with them. One area deems it immoral for someone to have sex before a certain age, the other locale declares differently.

Porn is simply graphic visual (and sometimes audible) presentations of sensual and erotic material designed to produce pleasureable arousal in the viewer. The judgement call of morality upon porn is solely in the mind of the viewer and of the region of the world in which he lives. Some states in the USA forbid gay porn to be sold or traded (or trafficked on the internet) within their boundaries. The UK seems to think that any type of forceful but consensual sex is violence and prohibits it.

Go figure. I believe porn is what it is and I deem myself to be a highly moral person who watches it from time to time.

Morality is subjective. In some precepts, sex for mere pleasure is immoral, whilst in some concepts gay sex is immoral, and these vary according to culture, upbringing, laws and personal experiences!

Some people may regard porn as absolute smut, despite almost every living adult has had at some point encountered pornography and cannot deny having some form of interest in it.

I regard pornography is some form of art (not in the conventional sense of course), as sex among consenting adults is beautiful and absolutely natural, and porn is without a doubt very entertaining! It evokes strong feelings from the viewer and sets the heart racing, just as good as any novel, or movie or musical.

So as for me, porn is not immoral - its just an act of a natural artform, but my neighbour two houses away may disagree with me on that subject

who decided whats moral? WE DO as individuals so we are all free to decide for ourselves

porn for me is GREAT lol

Gypsy said:

Morality is subjective.

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True. my feelings exactly. we each have the opportunity and obligation to form our own morality.

for me, porn sits ok with my morality...... with one caveat... i am uneasy about porn shot and distributed without the knowledge and consent of the participant/s.

actually, two caveats... i love asian porn and asian guys, but find one company disturbing. (name begins with private) i find the attitudes expressed on the site (and in the white guys clips) to be patronising, derogatory and racist, even if the guys do get paid (i bet a fraction of their western counterparts) i therefore avoid this site's product.

so my own morality defines what i watch, and i remain comfortable with my porn

(PS the views expressed above are my own of me, and not a criticism of others)

What do you exactly mean by "moral?"

Thanks for the interesting replies folks!

I didn't want to start the thread with my views, but instead see what other thought without any context which could artificially rail-road the conversation.

It's interesting that morals are seen as subjective. It's true they're not quantitative, you can't measure the morality of different options and give them a numeric value for comparison. It's also true that morals are not absolute. It's wrong to kill, but what if killing one person saves the lives of 1,000 people? But does that mean they are arbitrary? Or is there a universal concept that underlies all moral systems?

I would have to say there is. It is that you should avoid harming others as much as you possibly can, and when ever you do harm someone, it is probably immoral to a lesser or greater extent. Without any religion being involved, this principle is at the root of most of the legal systems in the world. Why is it illegal to murder someone? Is it because God says so? Or because doing so harms the victim and their families, and indeed the whole of society? Same with theft. Same with rape, same with assault, same with drunk driving, etc. etc. etc.. As hinted at earlier, sometimes the moral underpinning of laws is to protect the common good of society. This is why we have taxation systems that allow us to build roads, bridges, railways, public buildings, to fund schools and hospitals, and so forth.

At no point does religion need to enter into moral discussions. In my mind, you lose any moral argument when all you have to justify your point of view is "because I believe God wants it that way".

So - how does all this relate to porn? I think Zortek was on the money. You can look at porn in terms of morals very easily. Were all the participants willing? Were they harmed? Were they in any way victimised?

I think that the majority of porn is perfectly moral, it is adults choosing to partake in a particular job of their own free will. They get paid, we get off - win win

Indeed, many people get off simply on sharing their own sensuality and sexuality, and do so solely for the pleasure of doing so, without getting paid. Just look at the vast swaths of amateur porn all over the net. Just look in these very boards in fact, we have a 'show yourself off' section where many people (myself included) freely share their home made porn without getting paid!

There can be no doubt that there is porn at all levels of the morality scale. From amateur stuff done for fun on one end, right the way to secret cameras, filmed rape, and snuff porn at the very other extreme, with perhaps some grey areas in the middle like the example Zortek gives in his post.

It's also interesting to see the idea that porn can be art raised by numerous contributors. You can put me down as very firmly of that opinion too! The more artistically done, the better porn is, and conversely, the more mechanical and formulaic porn is, the worse it is!

Porn is also nothing new. As far back in history as we can trace art, we can find porn. A lot of it has been kept hidden from us and out of our school books, but it was all over the ancient world. The Romans decorated their houses with pron for heavens sake! It was not hidden away, it was literally embedded into the very plaster on the walls of their houses! Channel 4 in the UK did a great series a decade or so ago called "The Secret History of Pornography", well worth getting a copy of, it will certainly open your eyes!

B.

I was actually waiting on someone to point out snuff porn and voyeur porn, rape etc! Which is why i mentioned sex between consenting adults is beautiful, however what is being projected can change the mood of porn.

Of course I am not a fan of rape, even if it is staged. In my opinion rape is a very sensitive subject and I shan't go any further ranting about that; yet I got friends who love porn where rape is role-played!

Another morality issue in porn is bukkake and orgies! In this case I am going to confess I totally get turned on a lot by both of those, yet in reality I will never be a part of an orgy as I am monogamous by nature. But I know couples who are swingers, and in their opinion, nothing is wrong with that.

**

And here's a major issue of mine, and I think this disturbs me a lot! Porn where the models are meant to look underage! Of course the models are over the legal ages, but they are dressed as people under the age of consent. Sorry, but no. Legally it is right as the models are above age, but morally I just cant agree with it!

And there are many more issues which we can talk about - incest porn, various genres in bdsm, etc.

Without limiting or restricting anyone's freewill choices, and certainly not with any intention of imposing my "morals" upon any other creature: I would say that depictions of rape, violent assault with injury, snuff porn, non-consensual sex, sex with underage persons ------- all of these are not good for anyone in my view.

There is demonstrable negative psychological effect upon anyone who assumes a role to play out the above. It dehumanizes them and numbs them to the reality of what some humans actually suffer. I feel the same effect is imposed upon the viewers of such material. In terms of producing those vids, if no one is harmed in any way, I suppose it's the freewill choice of the actors/models involved. I wouldn't wish to restrict them in that. However, I would never choose to view that type of porn material and it is questionable as to how legit some of it may be, in terms of 'willing' performers. The fact that (in some regions) such material is outlawed in the name of the common good, should give anyone cause to consider before plunging in.

As for underage stuff in specific - that for me is a total no-no. To even suggest sex between adults and minors in a parody or proxy form with young looking actors, is to legitimize the victimization of innocent young persons who haven't the full understanding of what is happening in the world. Too many real instances of paedophilia and ephebophilia are doented regularly by law enforcement around the world. Anyone who wants to pretend that it's okay in fantasy to f*ck with kiddies (and encourage others to arousal by this pretence), is on a very slippery slope leading to trouble. Most Psychologists agree that repetitive mental stimulation of specific ideations, transforms those thoughts into physical actions after sufficient repetition. Actors learn lines that way, workers doing physical jobs learn the quickest and simplist way to perform their tasks by imagining then doing. Criminals rehearse and plan what they do in order to carry out their misdeeds. Stalkers are known to mentally plan out their route and course of action before actually stalking an individual. There are numerous doented studies which validate the "mental-repetition-creates-physical-action" paradigm. Sexual activity is no different.

Again, my personal opinions here.

gb2000ie said:

Do you have to be immoral to enjoy porn?.

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No, but it helps! :devil:

BTW, what's ephebophilia?

jeansGuyOZ said:

No, but it helps! :devil:

BTW, what's ephebophilia?

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I see your horns, JeansGuy.

Paedophilia is the proper term for the desire of an adult to have sex with a boy or girl PRIOR to the youngster having reached puberty; typical age target is 5-10. It is misused both in legal and social forms of the term. Ephebophilia is the desire of an adult to have sex with a teen, or a young person who has reached puberty. There is a difference psychiatrically and socially, as a paedophile may be infinitely more dangerous -- preferring to kill or seriously maim the child to prevent being discovered. An ephebophile (sometimes written Hebophile) tends to foster a "loving guardian relationship" with the pubescent kid, and that often proves less physically dangerous. Paedophiles may be of either gender, ephebophiles tend to be male in over 95% of doented cases.

That's not to justify either paraphilia, simply to explain them.

hawtsean said:

Without limiting or restricting anyone's freewill choices, and certainly not with any intention of imposing my "morals" upon any other creature: I would say that depictions of rape, violent assault with injury, snuff porn, non-consensual sex, sex with underage persons ------- all of these are not good for anyone in my view.

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True for me as well. i believe that there are "absolutes" that the greatest majority of people hold true, regardless of secular or religious, (murder rape pedophilia etc)

just to make a hypocrite of myself (for such a libertarian) , i have no problem with the imposition of harsh punishment and restriction of such material.

I think there is an immoral attitude with which many people approach porn, via their non-interest in an actual examination of the ethics of the porn business. I see many people online (not really talking about here--just on the internet) make many ageist, homophobic comments about young gay men but think it's perfectly just that homeless boys on the streets of Prague are exploited for their sexual gratification, exploited until their youth is used up by injections of hormones to make them hard and drugs slipped to make them compliant.

If I wanted to find moral pornography, it would be amateur videos that couples post online of themselves just to have fun--it wouldn't be from the commercial porn industry that exploits desperate young 'gay for pay' people who can't find any other work and exposes them to stds via the "bareback." I think the global economy and the conditions that push young people into prostitution and porn are very immoral, and in need of serious change. People who are comfortable, who have stable employment with a good wage in a job that allows them dignity, who came from a stable family can talk all they want about those who don't/didn't as being 'free agents' that consent to being used and thrown away, but that doesn't change the reality. Fuck porn.

I have no doubt that there are immoral studios like that out there ritsuka - but that does not mean the entire industry is like that. I think you can tell when porn is manufactured in that kind of abusive way, because everyone in it is just robotic, it's obvious to me that the performers are not doing it because they want to. I never support studios like that, and I find porn that gives off that feeling to be a turnoff, because I can't, won't, and don't want to, turn off my moral compass when I watch porn.

I hope I'm not alone in voting with my wallet, and steering clear of the dodgier studios.

B.

I like to see people express physical love...HOT!

CarryON!!!!!
g

I think it depends what kind of porn etc. I enjoy watching porn and I don't think I'm being immoral by doing so. The porn I like is where it is clear that there is easy to see real pleasure and not this "oh baby yes yes"-whining (from straight porn where women look like they would rather be far far away... ) and where the actors can even have fun.

I searched for the definition of morality and found "desirable behavior according to the wishes of a society". I am pretty sure that watching porn conflicts with common morality (even in my country, The Netherlands). So I am immoral when I watch porn. Not a criminal; I do not violate any law, but enough to feel naughty. And that is pleasant, because it increases excitement. Of course I have my own values. When I see a video where it is obvious that people are drugged or acting against their free will, my fun is over. Than I realize my own hypocrisy. I live in a rich country. I can afford high values. Sometimes I hate myself.

Tjerk12 said:

I searched for the definition of morality and found "desirable behavior according to the wishes of a society".

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While I would never contradict your opinion of your own morals, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the word morality - based upon your stated dictionary definition.

The "wishes" of a society are neither represented nor codified in legal terms or a written doent; and these wished-for values are not easily or simply defined or known ----- society and individual values change with every generation. I would offer that many humans desire (another word for wish) to view pornographic materials of various types. The fact that they do not and are embarrassed to admit their wishes, is (to me) a clear indication that the moral values of their society are false and forced upon them. The moral values of most societies are presumed by many, understood by few, and only a select handful know how to manipulate them to their own advantage - immorally I might add.

If there were common polls and censuses regularly taken, we would all be surprised at how much change would be expressed in the desires of society. If course, I refer to the many sub-areas of behavioral values, not the basics of mutual survival such as don't kill, don't steal, etc.

gb2000ie said:

Do you have to be immoral to enjoy porn? Or put another way, are porn and morality mutually exclusive? A simple question, how do you all feel?

B.

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There is nothing immoral about watching porn.It is not the watching. However if it motivates you to do something which is wrong, then it would be the wrong action which is wrong. If it was just for your personal pleasure I can see nothing wrong in the watching itself.

hawtsean said:

While I would never contradict your opinion of your own morals, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the word morality - based upon your stated dictionary definition.

The "wishes" of a society are neither represented nor codified in legal terms or a written doent; and these wished-for values are not easily or simply defined or known ----- society and individual values change with every generation. I would offer that many humans desire (another word for wish) to view pornographic materials of various types. The fact that they do not and are embarrassed to admit their wishes, is (to me) a clear indication that the moral values of their society are false and forced upon them. The moral values of most societies are presumed by many, understood by few, and only a select handful know how to manipulate them to their own advantage - immorally I might add.

If there were common polls and censuses regularly taken, we would all be surprised at how much change would be expressed in the desires of society. If course, I refer to the many sub-areas of behavioral values, not the basics of mutual survival such as don't kill, don't steal, etc.

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I think that we actual have the same opinion. Morality is not defined. Laws are a spin off from what the "majority" thinks about right or wrong. I assume that when a journalist would find out that BRAK.Nr.One, a guy who is every day at least two hours online at Gay Heaven, is in fact the president of the USA, people would be shocked. That is the (false?) morality of the majority. Individuals have personal values. In my statement I should have said that people would see my behavior as immoral.