What do you make of my dad's opinion?

I posted this a while back on Reddit, but I thought I'd like to share this with you guys and hear about your thoughts and opinions on this matter.

Okay, I was with my parents out at a mall, when we happen to see what we assumed was a lesbian couple (holding hands, being unusually close together). My dad started making some snide comments ("oh look, they must be lesbians!") about them, so I decided to test out his opinion on non-heterosexuality. We do 'discuss' on any topics we happen to come across, so it's not like it's out of the blue for him, but what I get from him afterwards is really shocking and devastating.

First, he said something about homosexuality not being in the "natural order of things", so I replied well hurtling at 35,000ft above sea level in a giant metal tube isn't natural either, to which he said that it wasn't his point. His point was that the "natural order" of living beings is to propagate genes, and that by being homosexual they're disregarding that "natural order", and intentionally not contributing to humanity by removing themselves from the gene pool. I mentioned that there are instances of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, does that mean that they're "unnatural"? And because they don't produce any offspring, then why do they still continue to exist generation after generation? So my dad says that perhaps every generation has a few of those "chosen" to be taken out of the gene pool, maybe aiding in population control. But then, he added, these are animals, they act out of instinct and cannot change what they are. Us humans, however, have the ability to choose not to engage in such "activities" and if we decide to follow that "instinct", then we're no better than those animals in this sense. He continues to say that we must have a "value system" to follow, and we must do what's "right" and not what's "wrong", and to him, homosexual acts are extremely immoral behavior. While he's not going to say anything about others who engage in such acts or take part in such a lifestyle, he "will NEVER accept" homosexual behaviors. And he ascertains that non-heterosexuality is partly caused by improper upbringing, such as lack of a father figure or instilling improper values, and says that if anyone (including us) turned out not to be straight, this means that they've failed as parents. He even went so far as to mention a talk he attended at my brother's school about 6 or 7 years ago, where an ex-gay came up to talk about how he get rid of his "homosexual desires", "came clean" and now (back then) had a wife and kids, a "proper family unit", and that he (the ex-gay) says that he no longer has such "desires" and non-heterosexuality is just immoral behavior of people. At this point, I had nothing more to say, so we just ended the discussion like that and continued on other topics/stuff.

I really don't know what else to say at this point, so is it remotely even possible to convince him from his stance on homosexuality? This is from a man whom I respected and looked up to all these 20 odd years of my life, most of what he says were never too far from making sense.

I've been better since I last posted it up, but there are times still where I ask myself, what if he's right? What if we're really only freaks who don't have much use in society, that we'll forever not belong? And even if he's wrong, is this what's going to be for the rest of our lives, be constantly be on the run from people whom we (used to) love and respect, like fugitives from a crime we didn't commit or even knew was a crime in the first place? Do we have to constantly hide from everyone, hide our relationships, never be able to display any signs of affection towards our loved one in public, never be able to talk to anyone about the greatest person in our life just because it is "immoral" and "fucking unnatural" for two consenting guys (or two consenting girls for that matter) to love each other? :angry:

You'll be surprised how easy people find it is to judge other people when they haven't *really* though about what they are saying and just repeat what they were taught.

Consider this; as a child we don't care what the color of someone's skin is, or what kind of toy they like to play with or who they prefer to hang out with. We just want to play and laugh and have fun with this new person we've met. It's only as we get older that we learn discriminatory behavior and we get taught what to believe (but rarely to critically think and evaluate objectively).

You're parents are the product of their upbringing and their aculated life experiences, just as you are a product of your upbringing and your life experiences. Thanks to the times and evolving technology, you've probably been exposed to more different experiences that your parents (who may have had more time to experience, but may have experienced less variety).

Your parent may not have had any experiences with lgbt people and families (at least not to his obvious knowledge) and so may only be able to draw on what he was taught (or indoctrinated) in.

Once last thing to consider, never underestimate how much your parents love you and what they will do for you. You are their child and, although it may take time, generally, a parents love for their child will have them defy the will of all the gods in heaven and all the demons in hell to protect their child and ensure their happiness.

Something I always notice about these people who insist humans must not give in to instinct is that it is always OTHER humans who have to resist, not them. Gay people should deprive themselves of love, but he should not. It's soooooooo much easier to tell others what not to do isn't it!

Secondly, there is nothing like a short sharp dose of reality to change people's minds. I won't say it always works, because it doesn't, there are those who disown their own children for being gay (I thought love of your child was unconditional, and that it was unnatural to abandon your children .... but what do I know?).

My brother was big on the homophobic language. Everything that was bad was 'gay' and anyone who in some way annoyed him was 'a fucking faggot' or a 'homo' and so on.

When I came out to my family, I didn't do it in a big song and dance way, and I did it slowly, first my parents, then my other brother, then my dad's parents and so on. But I avoided my 'homophobic' brother for months, in fact, it might have been more than a year.

I'd long made the decision not to lie, so if he'd asked at an time, I would have been honest, and then one day we were all in the car on the way to the airport for a holiday, and the conversion turned to girlfriends, and he asked me if I had one and I said I didn't. I think it was mum who chuckled or something, but anyway, he soon read the body language and realised that eveyone else in the car knew something he didn't. We filled him in, and he was angry, but not for the reason you might think. He was angry because I didn't trust him, and I was supposed to be his brother, and brothers love each other unconditionally. Eventually he asked why I hadn't told him, and I explained it was because of his homophobic comments, and he was genuinely shocked. He had only used that language because his friends did. From that day on he never uses that language, and he corrects others when they do.

As for arguments FOR homosexuality being natural - having more adults in a society who are not tied down with their own kids frees up resources for helping the rest of the family unit, hence helping the genes to survive. Remember, you share genes with your family, so helping them thrive IS helping to pass on your genes!

B.

First let me say 'Thank You' for sharing this personal story. It is a story about love, respect, honor and belonging. It is not a story about generational differences although that does play a part.

I understand why you were hurt by your father's words about homosexuality. I assume you have not told your parents or family about your sexuality. I can see why. You must have guessed how your father would react upon hearing the news his son is Gay. Fear of rejection is a huge part of our lives as Gay men. You were probably wise not to share that part of your life with your father yet.

I believe homosexuality is natural. Pro-creation is the natural order to perpetuate our species. We Gay men possess the ability to pro-create with women if or when we want. In the history of humankind Gay men have mated with women and produced children over and over again. Even today it is happening. If I wanted to have children I could. I do feel some regret that I haven't but not to the extent I want to do it now, lol.

Using your father's logic an argument can be made that heterosexuals who engage in sex without the intention of creating new life are committing unnatural acts. Anyone using birth control is committing unnatural acts. I don't agree with that personally. Heterosexuals enjoy sex outside it's 'natural' purpose of procreation as do homosexuals. Sex is not only about creating life. It is also about connecting our lives with those we love.

I could ramble on for hours but I won't. Suffice it to say there are some who will never acknowledge our right to exist. We can only hope the majority will.

This is a question I can't answer but the excellent replies already received have done that job.
My reaction is to say that you may consider yourself lucky to still care what your family think about you. I just left home as soon as I could and have never looked back. Since you respect your father I guess you want to earn his respect for you. I never had any respect for my dad so it was never something I worried about. I'm not saying follow my example, do not follow my example. You have something which is worth the effort of trying to sustain.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the replies and support! :big hug:

I WILL tell them someday (I owe them that much), but only when I'm financially independent and with an expectation that they will never understand. I've been seeing this counselor (and still do) for a long while now, and he's said that for all the cases he'd seen of men coming to terms with their sexuality, most of their parents couldn't accept it. Though it's not to the point of disowning them - although some initially did, they still can't condone their "gay lifestyles" and constantly persuading their sons to "turn back to being straight", kinda like supporting a drug addict to kick his habit (one mother keeps hogging her son with issues like HIV and other "evils" of being gay). My dad, for one, still thinks conversion therapy works, and that ex-gays are shining examples of the "fact" that being gay is immoral and wayward behavior. As with what I said in another post, I recently mused about trans-sexuality, and he adamantly thinks that they are seriously "sick in the head" (and connected that to mental disorders like Autism), and that it just so happens that science hasn't found a way to "treat" them yet.

Idk, I used to have some hope that he'd accept me, but after that conversation it shattered my illusion that he's reasonable, and tbh it has changed my view of him. I hardly listened to his words and advice in the past (like all teenagers do), but at least I acknowledged that his words makes sense and I just don't like hearing them.......... Now? I seriously doubt most of his advice, wondering if each and every word he says are just as biased as his views on homosexuality.

Still fucking pains me to think and write about all this though

...So my dad says that perhaps every generation has a few of those "chosen" to be taken out of the gene pool, maybe aiding in population control. ...

Click to expand...

Your father has predjudices but at least he has some reasons for them. So I get the impression that he's a reasonable man who can still learn and change his views.

My parents had a lot of prejudices too - just like your father has. But after they found out, they left them behind them. Of course parents need time to adjust, just like you needed time yourself I guess. Today my parents tell others about it as something totally normal.

So there is always hope and don't give too much about what they say now. But don't wait too long or they might get angry about you being secretive (Parents have feelings too ).
And tell them both at the same time (at least close to each other). If you tell one of them first, you force them to keep secrets from each other. Give them the chance to get used to idea with each other.

You'll be glad when you did it.

As I had mentioned in my previous posts that I have family members to this day that are extremely homophobic and this has caused me to be outcast for many years because I am a gay man. However, there were two people in my family that I was hurt and disappointed with their reaction to my sexual orientation because they waited right until I was raped and battling kidney disease to reveal their true feelings about me. One person was my favorite aunt since I was a kid. For most of my life we had a very close and loving relationship. She considers herself to be a devout Christian and during my time in the hospital. She came to visit me and informed me that God was punishing me for being a gay man and she did not want gay people or drug addicts around her at all. During this time once I finally got out of the hospital, I came really close to losing my apartment due to not having any financial help. Since I was very close with this cousin whom by the way happens to be her son, I approached him about moving in with him until I get things in order. He denied me and revealed that he would be very uncomfortable having me in his home because of my sexual orientation. Nonetheless, initially, I was very hurt and very disappointed when all of this occurred ...however...once my situation took a turn for the better...I let go of these people from my life and never looked back and lost all contact with them which was my preference and I have to say that this was one of the decisions that I am very happy with doing.

I don’t want to set the world on fire...... I just want to start a flame in your heart

You have started the flame in my heart theseeker.

I don't know if you want to indulge into the actual discussion
about ethics here, but when someone equals natural to good,
this is called naturalistic fallacy.
As you pointed out yourself, using planes or taking antibiotics
is in no way "natural". On the other hand, rape and violent
behavior are very much something that occurs all the time
in nature and thus "natural".
The key thing to take away from that? The question if something
is "natural" or not, is completely irrelevant to the ethical evaluation
of it.
(By the way: This means that all arguments that are made
among the line of "but there are gay animals too!", are just as
irrelevant to the ethical discussion of this issue).

Once you understand that, it becomes very clear that there is no
moral/ethical point to be made about sex between any two
consenting adults.


P.S.
theseeker, don't feel to discouraged by what your parents are saying
now that they don't know you're gay. My siblings used to use "gay" as
a swearword regularly and my dad always panicked when he saw what he
thought to be a gay man. Since I've come out to all of them, they have accepted
me and my boyfriend and my mom even told me that when she votes now, making
sure the politician supports equal rights is especially important to her

I read with compassion what you wrote on here 'theseeker' and I felt the uncertainty and the hurt that you were left with after having these discussions with your father. You asked many questions of us and sadly I don't have many answers for you. Sometimes there just aren't any answers unfortunately. So why should you read my reply then? Perhaps because I'm a Dad, and in my family your story is reversed.

I'm a bi-guy who got married thinking he could change to being straight ... but it doesn't happen. Your sexual orientation is something you were born to have. It's how you are wired to be. I know that now after living life in the straight lane for 25 years. I tried. I tried really hard. And in the end it nearly destroyed me because I was depriving myself of something I was born to need. When I finally found myself some male to male action then my life rebalanced itself and I was fine again. I have children, all married now and all straight. I lead a straight married life to all outward appearances, but I have men friends that I meet discretely now and then.

I know that parents aren't perfect 'theseeker'. I know we make mistakes. We're only human and we don't always get it right. But I know from the wonderful way you wrote, that your Dad loves you. He wouldn't spend time sharing his opinions with you if he didn't. He's shared his feelings and what's in his heart with you. It's him and it’s how he feels, and how he sees life. Sadly it’s not the words that you so desperately wanted to hear. But can you listen more deeply perhaps? Can you search beneath what he says to how he feels for you? He loves you as only a father can love a son. I can see that in what you wrote, and I'm sure you know it in your heart too.

He may already suspect that you are gay and his hard line arguments may be to deter you from going into a lifestyle that he disapproves of. Parents usually know their children better than anyone else in the world does. But the bottom line is does it really matter that your sexual orientation is different from his? Isn't his great love for you enough? Why does he have to approve of your lifestyle? Can't you be a man in your own right making decisions that won't always get you universal approval, but which in your heart you know are right for you? Your Dad will always love you no matter what you do. It's how a Dad is programed. And he won't always approve of everything you do. It doesn’t work that way. But you can't change him .. any more than he can change you.

Celebrate the fact that you have a Dad who loves you, and who cares enough about you to be concerned for your future. Not everyone is as lucky as you are. And celebrate also that you love and care about your Dad. You wouldn't have written this post if he wasn’t very important to you. And through all this uncertainty, live your life as you believe you need to live it. It's the exact same thing that your Dad has done after all, so you're following in his footsteps even if it takes you down a completely different pathway
Your Dad may not understand where you go and what you do, and he may not approve because he doesn’t understand, but his heart will go on loving you no matter what happens. That’s what a Dad does. Isn’t that enough for you? Perhaps your challenge is not to try and change him, but to love him back as much as he loves you .. even if he never changes.
And if you can do that (and I believe you can) then love may works its magic .. because love can sometimes change these things .. when nothing else can.

(This was written in love for ‘theseeker’ by some other kids Dad, because as a Dad I care about him like his Dad does .. )

Thank you so much, norvehc. I really appreciate what you've said and the time taken to write all of that out (and I'm kinda sad to hear of how you struggled through your own sexuality too). I've read through what you've said, and I think they do make sense.

I guess why I'm pissed with my parents is perhaps that they're not providing (or at least show that they can provide) the support that I need. I live somewhere that, like in most parts of the world still, gay activity is a punishable offense (though the last time someone was charged was back in 2007). It's not as bad as in African countries, or even Russia, but it's definitely not a safe(r) haven like in the better parts of US and Europe. It took me until earlier this year to even realize that I'm only attracted to guys, and that's partly through lots of talking with a very understanding counselor. And I guess some of you guys have seen my earlier posts, that when I first came to terms with my sexuality, I FUCKING HATED IT. Obviously things have been better since then, but even now, from time to time, I still have "episodes" where I don't want to deal with all this, have some sort of an emotional crisis or something. Organizations like PFLAG don't exist here, and there's little to no support of the LGBT community here (the government turns a blind eye, and any efforts to help the LGBT community are always lambasted by the public for being "insensitive" to religious/moral views), and I really need that support, that reassurance that all this is alright. Yet, when I turn to my parents, the idea I'm getting from them is that they basically think of people like us, implying their son too (without knowing it), as inferior to everyone else. Should I just tell them and hope they would support me? I can't take the risk, at least not now. I've heard way too many stories of kids getting kicked out by their parents, leaving them homeless and such. Their views also constantly reminded me of how fucked up society generally is, for hating on a group of people that didn't even do anything harmful (unless you're saying love kills/murders/kidnaps/robs/etc now), shackling people to old social conventions/mindsets and causing undue stress/mental harm.

Long story short, I've thought long and hard about this, and I feel that much of this unhappiness against them stems from the fact that I WANT their support, but receive only doubts and hate from them, and there's no guarantee that coming out to them would garner any more support from them than they do now (or worse). And I do understand that you don't have to be accepting of someone's lifestyle/behavior to be supportive of him, because the counselor I've been talking to has been extremely supportive and understanding on my road to self-acceptance, yet couldn't really accept homosexuality himself (it's a sin).

Norvehc you really have written a very moving and heart-melting post and I'm totally admit to your post - but as well I can feel with you Theseeker. You are living in a homophobe society and I can understand that you are shy to open yourself to your family. It must really be horrible to love men but not showing that openly because all the others think from you like a criminal.
I hope so very much that the day will come where too in your homecountry some borders breake down and you too can live a free man with your feelings and your wishes and as well as with your sexual oriantation.

Sorry if this sounds corny; you do have a pretend family here, one you can practice on. It's no substitute for the real flesh and blood family but you can say what you like here with no trolls and, I hope, build up your confidence. I wish there had been something like this when I was your age.

My my what a story, if dad is for real he will keep on loving you!
people surprise me all the time, some bad but mostly good!