gay Christian help

[wardell]

well I just messed up big time my preacher came over today i've been depressed lately so he came over to check up on me. well long story short he starts talking about sin and some how he stated talking about how being gay is a sin. well I could stay quiet and I blurted out that I am gay and I told him gay is not a sin, if God did not want me to be this way then why don't he fix me. will he told me in just not trying hard enough. will any way is there any one here who is a gay Christian. why do you think being gay is not a sin? and what about the bible and the clobber passages. please be respectful I don't know what to do

 

[gorgik9]

Oh dear wardell, dear boy, dear gay boy!

What I would like to do is to give that preacher some serious Biblical whipping. To me it's quite obvious that your in emotional pain and in serious need of the famous love thy neighbour - even atheists like me have that need.

We all have. I don't know, but maybe this clip could be of some kind of help :http://www.gayheaven.org/showthread.php?t=488677

 

[brmstn69]

While I don't approve... If you feel you must continue with a Christian lifestyle, I suggest you switch to a more liberal and open-minded denomination. Perhaps an episcopal church...

After all you were born gay but you CHOSE to be Christian...

 

[Otage]

Well we have the old and new testament. I believe that Jesus was sent down to earth to to show the real way, after all he was the Messiah, messanger of God, and according to concept of Holy trinity, God himself.

He was not anti gay. He accepted prostitutes and other despiced people. He in no way says that some kind of love is bad, but all the love is good. For power seeking glergies some of Jesus teachings are broblematic, cause he talks about personal fate etc, and all you need for salvation is to believe.

So glergies who run, and try to benefit from their flock, do it like any other group wanting to control. With fear and lies, taking things out of context, changing their meaning etc.

Jesus died on cross, so that anybody who believes in him, will get his sins forgiven, and would never go to damnation.

I mean read the Sermon on the mount and Great commandment. Even atheistists and pacifists thinks these are truly great guides for life.

And gay is not a choice, just try to be straight, and you'll see And why would God create you as somenthing who can't be saved? Thant kinda God sounds more like a Devil to me. And in my opinnion, that preacher is more like being deceived by the Devil, cause he refuses to follow teachings of love and acceptance, and is following more the rules of men, who have distorted the faith of love, into prison of submission and brainwash.

God created you as you are, and loves you, and he sent Jesus to show the meaning and price of love, the gift of acceptance.

 

[dargelos]

The Bible is a vast book. Some people only remember one line from it, a little bit of Leviticus. It's like opening the phone book at one page and concluding that everyone in town is called Smith.
The biblical view of the relationship between men and women is that women exist to serve men and they must be obedient to men. So in matters of sex, the woman must be subservient to the man, a man must never allow himself to become subservient to a woman. This raises a problem in the case of a man having sex with another man, the idea that if one man is the dominant partner, the other man must become the submissive partner. But since a man is not allowed to be subservient to a woman how can we allow him to be subservient to another man.
Consider the phrase "lie with a man as if with a woman" I don't believe I have ever done that, I have always lain with a man as if with a man.
When straight men are starved of contact with women, like in a prison, they start resorting to sex with men. Using a man as if he was a woman. That sort of sex is desperate loveless sex, usualy violent, which involves a stronger man taking advantage of a less strong man. Just the sort of subservience that the Bible abhorrs. Thats the sort of sex that went on in Sodom and Gommorah.
There is no reference anywhere in the Bible to the sort of sex you and I have, of two men willingly making love to each other as equal partners. No partner being subservient to the other partner, just two human mammals doing the thing that Mother Nature is telling them to do.

 

[jw4833]

I considered myself to be a gay man with good religion morals in regard to specific references. Although, I do read certain areas of the Bible on a daily basis...However....not all that's written in it I have disagreements with. Therefore, I just apply various readings that applies to my values and keep it moving. I had visited various churches within my lifetime and although I've never "came out" as a gay man to any of the members/congregation...I too was labeled as a gay man at this one particular church because I've always sat in the back pew of the church and I always wore a suit and tie which was something that besides the pastor did the male congregation indulge in. I even remember being summoned into a special meeting in this regard by the Board of Elections. I also recall the pastor himself coming to my home when I was released from the hospital to pray for me and he whispered a sexual come on in my ear. As some of the other members had mentioned to your topic, I would advised you seeking a more liberal and open-minded denomination. In my community, we now have three churches that are for LGBT community because I live in a very diverse little city. Nonetheless, I must say also that I do a lot of my religious practices in my home and read certain scriptures and readings that I feel gives me the motivation and encouragement that I need to start my day. This works very well for me.

 

[gb2000ie]

I'm not a Christian theologian, but I am an ex-catholic, and I have done quite a bit of reading on the topic.

The mentions of homosexuality in the bible are VERY few, and not as clear-cut as the right would have you believe.

There is only one reference in the old testament which I'll come to in a moment, and there are only a few in the new. Those in the new testament can all be disregard as miss-translations to English. They are against things like pederasty and prostitution, not against consensual homosexual relationships like those we have today.

So, lets get back to the one clear reference:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination ... If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them

Seems pretty clear-cut right?

The thing is, you have to remember the position of the old testament within Christianity. The old testament describes the old covenant between God and his people, Jesus then came along and replaced that covenant with a new covenant.

It is because of this fact that Christians do not need to be circised. The old testament is very clear that believers should all be circised, and yet, Christians are not - why? Because the requirement for circision is part of the old covenant. The old testament says believers can't eat pork, but Christians can, again, same reason. The condemnation on homosexuality is in Leviticus - one of the books describing all those laws that Jesus swept away.

If a Christian priest tells you homosexuality is a sin, ask him when he last eat pork, when he last had shellfish, when he last wore cloths made of two separate materials, and whether or not he is circised. If he's ever eaten any of those things, or worn and such cloths, or is uncircised, then he is a much of a sinner as you by his own logic.

Many American Christians choose to ignore the position of the old testament within Christianity, or, are too theologically illiterate to understand it. Either way, if a Christian tells you the bible is against homosexuality, they are wrong. Christians are not Jews!

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

A little adendum - here are all the things banned in Leviticus: http://refhide.com/?http://leviticusbans.tumblr.com/post/23730370413/76-things-banned-in-leviticus

Now - only a person who does NONE of those things can call you a sinner for being gay. And remember, these rules are for Jews, not Christians, because Christians believe Jesus gave them a new covenant with God.

Oh - want a good example of how much the old and new covenants differ - the old covenant teaches Jews "and eye for an eye", and the new covenant replaces that with "turn the other cheek" - Jesus REALLY changed things, and anyone who relies on Leviticus to condemn something is rejecting the change brought by Jesus - which sounds pretty darn un-Christian to me!

B.

 

[Whisper]

The biblical view of the relationship between men and women is that women exist to serve men and they must be obedient to men.
Using a man as if he was a woman. That sort of sex is desperate loveless sex, usualy violent, which involves a stronger man taking advantage of a less strong man.

That just PISSES ME OFF!!! I'm not sure if I should continue writing, I need to calm down first...Yep... Need to calm down... or maybe I just should go serving my husband, after all I'm just a woman...

Ok, stopping this rant right now, it's going to side-tracks. Sorry guys, I couldn't help it

 

[Otage]

The bibles broblem is the old and new testament. There are hundreds of contradictions between those two. Basicly you have to choose either one, since Jesus kinda outdated the old one. And the old testament has so many weapons for hatred, and that is what all the hate mongers use. They pick the weapons they want, and ignore the things they break themselves. You can't isolate things from a book, that you call the truth, the word of God.

BUT if you read the new testament only, it leaves quite positive feeling. I mean could you imagine Jesus coming to you, and saying smth like "You filthy faggot, I don't love you"? The preacher of love, the man of forgiveness and understanding, the man of acceptance.

 

[gorgik9]

A little adendum - here are all the things banned in Leviticus: http://refhide.com/?http://leviticusbans.tumblr.com/post/23730370413/76-things-banned-in-leviticus

Now - only a person who does NONE of those things can call you a sinner for being gay. And remember, these rules are for Jews, not Christians, because Christians believe Jesus gave them a new covenant with God.

Oh - want a good example of how much the old and new covenants differ - the old covenant teaches Jews "and eye for an eye", and the new covenant replaces that with "turn the other cheek" - Jesus REALLY changed things, and anyone who relies on Leviticus to condemn something is rejecting the change brought by Jesus - which sounds pretty darn un-Christian to me!

B.

Don't be too sure about how much the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament differs!
The only Jesus who's words we can read is the Jesus of the four gospels, portraid in very different ways. (OK there were dozens more gospels written, but the four we all know about were the only gospels who made it into the canon.)

The Gospel of Matthew is often considered the most Judaistic of the Gospels, and it's the Gospel where we'll find Jesus saying, that I haven't come to change a single iota of the Torah.

Jesus was a jew from Galilee, his brother James was a jew, so were all his apostles, including St Paul.

The ONLY authoritative religious Scripture that the first 3-4 generations of christians knew about was the Hebrew scriptures in the Ancient greek translation, the Septuaginta.

So "saving" the Bible and christianity by talking about the bottomless badness of the Torah and contrasting it to a New Testament sweet candybar is not a very good idea.

 

[gb2000ie]

The bibles broblem is the old and new testament. There are hundreds of contradictions between those two. Basicly you have to choose either one, since Jesus kinda outdated the old one. And the old testament has so many weapons for hatred, and that is what all the hate mongers use. They pick the weapons they want, and ignore the things they break themselves. You can't isolate things from a book, that you call the truth, the word of God.

If you are a Christian, it really is very clear-cut, the old testament described the old covenant between God and the Jews, and Jesus came to full fill the old covenant and replace it with a new one. If you are a real Christian, you don't get to choose - Leviticus is NOT for you, Jesus replaced it!

BUT if you read the new testament only, it leaves quite positive feeling. I mean could you imagine Jesus coming to you, and saying smth like "You filthy faggot, I don't love you"? The preacher of love, the man of forgiveness and understanding, the man of acceptance.

Agreed - the hate in the name of Jesus is very out of character with the Jesus of the gospels.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Don't be too sure about how much the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament differs!
The only Jesus who's words we can read is the Jesus of the four gospels, portraid in very different ways. (OK there were dozens more gospels written, but the four we all know about were the only gospels who made it into the canon.)

The Gospel of Matthew is often considered the most Judaistic of the Gospels, and it's the Gospel where we'll find Jesus saying, that I haven't come to change a single iota of the Torah.

Jesus was a jew from Galilee, his brother James was a jew, so were all his apostles, including St Paul.

The ONLY authoritative religious Scripture that the first 3-4 generations of christians knew about was the Hebrew scriptures in the Ancient greek translation, the Septuaginta.

So "saving" the Bible and christianity by talking about the bottomless badness of the Torah and contrasting it to a New Testament sweet candybar is not a very good idea.

I think you mis-understand the foundation of Christian theology.

There is a big section at the start of the old testament that lays down the rules the Jews must adhere to while crossing the desert. Those are where get the whole whole pork thing, and the no shellfish thing, and the no being gay thing.

Together they make up the old covenant between God and his people. Jesus was sent down to replace that covenant with a new covenant. If you're not sure what a covenant is, think contract. The rules about pork and not being gay and having to be circised were part of God's contract with people. Jesus came to being a new contract that replaces the old one. That is why Christians can eat pork. That is why Christians do not have to be circised, and that is why the don't be gay think in Leviticus literally does not apply to Christians who actually understand the theology underlying their faith.

Understanding the role Jesus played in the relationship between God and his followers is kinda fundamental to Christianity, and any Christian who quotes Leviticus does not understand why God sent Jesus down here.

B.

P.S.
I have a good understanding of Christian Theology, but I don't believe a word of it!

 

[W!nston]

The Bible is a vast book. Some people only remember one line from it, a little bit of Leviticus. It's like opening the phone book at one page and concluding that everyone in town is called Smith.
The biblical view of the relationship between men and women is that women exist to serve men and they must be obedient to men. So in matters of sex, the woman must be subservient to the man, a man must never allow himself to become subservient to a woman. This raises a problem in the case of a man having sex with another man, the idea that if one man is the dominant partner, the other man must become the submissive partner. But since a man is not allowed to be subservient to a woman how can we allow him to be subservient to another man.
Consider the phrase "lie with a man as if with a woman" I don't believe I have ever done that, I have always lain with a man as if with a man.
When straight men are starved of contact with women, like in a prison, they start resorting to sex with men. Using a man as if he was a woman. That sort of sex is desperate loveless sex, usualy violent, which involves a stronger man taking advantage of a less strong man. Just the sort of subservience that the Bible abhorrs. Thats the sort of sex that went on in Sodom and Gommorah.
There is no reference anywhere in the Bible to the sort of sex you and I have, of two men willingly making love to each other as equal partners. No partner being subservient to the other partner, just two human mammals doing the thing that Mother Nature is telling them to do.

I was raised as a Baptist and I read the bible cover to cover many times. I used to be able to flip to any verse within seconds. It was a different time.

When I turned 16 I rejected the church for obvious reasons but I could never have explained how stupid the hatred of homosexuals by the church was in such an enlightened manner as dargelos did in his post. Beautifully said my friend.

I have a new point to make in future discussions about religion and homosexuality... at least Christianity and homosexuality anyway

 

[netdick]

After all you were born gay but you CHOSE to be Christian...[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

Agree with op. You need to find a balance x

 

[wardell]

the problem is I live in Alabama and no church is going to like me I wish there was a loving preacher to talk to I hate this state I would move if I could. I know I'm not but it fills like I'm the only gay man here

 

[richardbb]

@wardell: Maybe what happened there should make you think about whether you want to continue following an ideology that has a fundamental disrespect you and other human beings.
There is nothing wrong with being gay from a moral point of view.

After all you were born gay but you CHOSE to be Christian...

He probably didn't choose to be christian. That is usually something one's parent choose.

 

[Otage]

Well I don't think person has to abandon his faith just because hi's gay. But he can abandon the congregation(bible is the word of God, not congragation), or be part of it, but does one have to be active member if he feels his being rejected. One can have personal faith. And believing in somenthing is healthy, as long as it doesn't turn into fanatic hatred.

And have to say it's very nice to see how wonderfull people we have on the forum. Have never seen thread like this without it turning into debate of fanatics of the ateist and christian side clashing together.:cheers:

 

[dargelos]

Wardell, do you ever look at craigslist?. It's regarded as old fashioned now but you find people there who you dont find on a full-on gay site like this one. This is what I found with Alabama > Birmingham > strictly platonic;
posted 6 days ago. HI YES I LOOKING FOR A MCC CHURCH OR A CHURCH IS THAT DON'T MIND GAY MEN TO ATTEND AS A COUPLE NEW TO THE AREAIN BIRM, THANK'S
so there is a couple seeking a gay friendly church, you could try contacting them to see if they had any luck, or maybe you are not near Bham, so maybe you can post a request like that for yourself.
It's free so give it a shot.

 

[richym]

Hey there, I hear your pain mate. Growing up I always thought being gay was wrong, spent years praying that God would change me. Started dating a woman, and married her thinking God would change me, but I remain a gay man, just married to a woman. I also am a pastor for a group of rural churches.
While in English translations the Bible might seem to be clear in condemning homosexuality, in the original languages things are not so clear. The word in Paul's letter which is twice translated homosexual, we are not actually sure what it means. Up until a couple of hundred years ago it was thought to be masturbation. It could reflect the almost paedophilic relationships of the Greek world, we aren't sure. But as my mother always said, if you don't know what a word means, don't use it.
The two references in Leviticus to lying with a man as a man lies with a woman, could, as some seem to have suggested here, reflect that sadly in that time women were seen as lesser, so it was not right to treat a man like a woman. However I have heard one speaker suggest that the Hebrew there is actually "A man should not lie with a man as men lie with a woman." When do multiple men lie with one woman? When she is a prostitute. So far more likely these passages are dealing with forbidding male temple prostitutes, which were used in the religions around them. This also explains why Deuteronomy, the second telling of the law, does not mention men lying with women, but does have law against male temple prostitutes.
The other main verse is in the start of Romans, where it talks of giving over from natural lusts. Is it natural for you to love a man or a woman. Well if you are like me, the natural is loving a man, so rather than condemning homosexuality, again this may be dealing with male prostitution.
Of course many people would disagree with me, but you have large numbers who would agree. If any of you ever need to chat, then please get in touch.