• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access.

    By joining you will gain full access to thousands of Videos, Pictures & Much More.

    Membership is absolutely FREE and registration is FAST & SIMPLE so please, Register Today and join one of the friendliest communities on the net!



    You must be at least 18 years old to legally access this forum.
  • Hello Guest,

    Thanks for remaining an active member on GayHeaven. We hope you've enjoyed the forum so far.

    Our records indicate that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks. Why not dismiss this notice & make your next post today by doing one of the following:
    • General Discussion Area - Engage in a conversation with other members.
    • Gay Picture Collections - Share any pictures you may have collected from blogs and other sites. Don't know how to post? Click HERE to visit our easy 3-steps tutorial for picture posting.
    • Show Yourself Off - Brave enough to post your own pictures or videos? Let us see, enjoy & comment on that for you.
    • Gay Clips - Start sharing hot video clips you may have. Don't know how to get started? Click HERE to view our detailed tutorial for video posting.
    As you can see there are a bunch of options mentioned in here and much more available for you to start participating today! Before making your first post, please don't forget to read the Forum Rules.

    Active and contributing members will earn special ranks. Click HERE to view the full list of ranks & privileges given to active members & how you can easily obtain them.

    Please do not flood the forum with "Thank you" posts. Instead, please use the "thanks button"

    We Hope you enjoy the forum & thanks for your efforts!
    The GayHeaven Team.
  • Dear GayHeaven users,

    We are happy to announce that we have successfully upgraded our forum to a new more reliable and overall better platform called XenForo.
    Any feedback is welcome and we hope you get to enjoy this new platform for years and years to come and, as always, happy posting!

    GH Team

The silent grief of the Dutch

bigsal

Super Vip
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
26
Points
0
These days there is much talk about the tragedy that struck the Malaysian plane with on-board many Dutch citizens.
Even on this forum I read lots of news and accusations, which, however, do not follow evidence, only progande of part.
I unite myself with pain and emotion at the Dutch people, a people who I have always valued and appreciated several times, even in this forum.
An example of composure that should be an example to all nations, the U.S. and Russia in the head.
Thank Netherlands for this example of a great civilization.
 

W!nston

SuperSoftSillyPuppy
Staff member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
11,992
Reaction score
1,413
Points
159
Yes bigsal, the Dutch are a very civilized people.

I'm no scholar but I'm sure some of the resident scholars here on GH can provide a better perspective on the history of the Dutch people. I seem to remember something called the Dutch West India Company and the power it wielded. So they have a long history of greatness the same as England, America, Russia and China.

The people of the Netherlands are a great example of composure but there is an element of necessity in their composure. What could they possibly do about the deaths of so many citizens? They are not a military power. They could not challenge the forces responsible for the downing of MH17. If they were as powerful as Russia their reaction to this tragedy might include some sword rattling as well. Everything is relative. I believe they are counting on America, NATO and the West in general to fight their battles for them. Or they may feel they should continue to turn the other cheek so to speak.

I have nothing but respect for the Dutch but I must say realistically what could they do otherwise?
 

bigsal

Super Vip
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
26
Points
0
This composure is in itself a warning to everyone's conscience, or at least for those who think they own it.

Do not instrumentalize this tragedy, it would already be a good thing.
 

dargelos

Super Vip
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,859
Reaction score
335
Points
83
Thank you Bigsal, thank you very much, your words are a welcome antidote to the unwarranted sneering at the Netherlands government and people. Showing respect and dignity is not a sign of weakness, Mark Rutte has been strong in negotiations, he is getting important things done quickly and quietly without wasting his time and breath trying to impress the TV news. This is exactly the right approach to avoid making a bad situation worse, I wish people would learn from his example, there would be less blood spilled in the world if they did.
 

W!nston

SuperSoftSillyPuppy
Staff member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
11,992
Reaction score
1,413
Points
159
I've re-read the posts in this thread without finding any 'sneering'. Please elaborate dargelos :)
 

tonka

Super Vip
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
1,776
Reaction score
205
Points
63
I read a story (somewhere) that the quiet pain of the Dutch has made real sanctions possible. In a way that the American government pressure and general outrage has not.
We shall see.

Maybe the European dynamic is different. Maybe whatever moves them to action is different than America, or Russia.
Europe has an extraordinary and old and painful history. We young pups in America
can't possibly understand that.

In terms of policy, will this mean the EU will face this issue in a decisive way? Who knows.
But the dynamics of these questions are different.

It has certainly given me pause in my thinking.
 

W!nston

SuperSoftSillyPuppy
Staff member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
11,992
Reaction score
1,413
Points
159
An old adage says "Time heals all wounds". For the sake of everyone touched by this tragedy I hope that is true.

We will have to wait and see.
 

bigsal

Super Vip
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
26
Points
0
It is true, the time will help to heal all wounds, but the scars remain, particularly to the relatives of the victims.
 

gb2000ie

Super Vip
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Messages
4,529
Reaction score
325
Points
0
Europe has an extraordinary and old and painful history. We young pups in America can't possibly understand that.

Having had your nations ravaged by two world wars definitely gives you a different feeling about war. The fact that the continental united states have not been a battleground in living memory makes it much easier for the US to be all gung-ho about war. The British got that out of their system in 1914 when they all thought they'd be home by Christmas, and instead endured four years of slaughter in the trenches of Belgium and France!
 

W!nston

SuperSoftSillyPuppy
Staff member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
11,992
Reaction score
1,413
Points
159
America has been a battleground and those scars remain to this day.

The American Civil War was the bloodiest with an estimated 850,000 military deaths. The civilian death toll has never been established but it was much worse among southern civilians as a result of the Union armies revenge taking that was encouraged by their leaders.

The divisions between the North and the South are evident to this day.
 

gb2000ie

Super Vip
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Messages
4,529
Reaction score
325
Points
0
America has been a battleground and those scars remain to this day.

The American Civil War was the bloodiest with an estimated 850,000 military deaths. The civilian death toll has never been established but it was much worse among southern civilians as a result of the Union armies revenge taking that was encouraged by their leaders.

The divisions between the North and the South are evident to this day.

As bad as that is - no one alive today remembers their American town being occupied by an invading army, or being shelled to oblivion.

My grand parents remember being thrown out of their house by the invading Germans. They remember their town being bombed by the allies to try get the Germans out, and they remember the terror instilled by V1s and V2s.

War is a fresher wound in Europe, which is why there is a real reticence to start a new one.

B.
 

dargelos

Super Vip
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,859
Reaction score
335
Points
83
Today we in the free world as its called, feel that Russia is our enemy.
It hasn't always been so. Looking back to WW2, we would not have defeated the Nazi menace without the sacrifice of Russian lives. And what a sacrifice that was, civil+military losses in the range 21-28 million. UK and US losses under half a million each were bad enough but over 21,000,000 friends and lovers frozen fried starved smashed and shot. That's out of a bigger country of course but it still leaves me numb with horror.
A country like the Netherlands had a different type of war to that experianced by UK,USA and USSR, they suffered occupation, so they had enemy soldiers eating their food,sleeping in their houses and with their girlfriends, it was humiliation on top of all the other sufferings of war.
Where this is leading to is that while the Dutch have good reason to hate Russia today, if they remember their history and I'm sure they do, they'll still remember the enormous debt of gratitude they owe to the Russian people. When I say the Russian people I mean the honest normal citizens, I don't mean the crooks in charge of them. Mr Putin is no more representative of the everyday Russian than the Koch brothers are of the typical American.
It's alway more complicated than it looks isn't it.
 

ihno

Daughter of Deuterium
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Excuse me, I really don't want to disturb anything here.

Really, guys. The greatness of the Dutch because of their Imperial past? I'd say they act decently - if they do so - because they are decent people, not because they had colonies up to 1975 (or whenever). Have you ever heard of South-Afrika and the Buren? Apartheit? Guess where they came from originally.

The story of Imperialism is not a happy one unfortunately and there is nothing to romanticize.

Let's not forget that today's poverty of the Third World as well as today's conflicts and wars in the Third World have their roots in Imperalism. Arbitary borders, slavery, economical plundering of the colonies are still the causes for problems we have today.

And as for war: Is a "war" only a "war", if First World Nations fight against each other?

The USA were also involved in the Korea-War 1950-1953, the Vietnam-War 1964-1974, two Iraque-Wars and those are just the major ones after 1945.

And let's not forget Afghanistan. There is still war right now and there is a big coalition involved in it, even if the politicians use other words.
 

bigsal

Super Vip
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
26
Points
0
Excuse me, I really don't want to disturb anything here.

Really, guys. The greatness of the Dutch because of their Imperial past? I'd say they act decently - if they do so - because they are decent people, not because they had colonies up to 1975 (or whenever). Have you ever heard of South-Afrika and the Buren? Apartheit? Guess where they came from originally.

The story of Imperialism is not a happy one unfortunately and there is nothing to romanticize.

Let's not forget that today's poverty of the Third World as well as today's conflicts and wars in the Third World have their roots in Imperalism. Arbitary borders, slavery, economical plundering of the colonies are still the causes for problems we have today.

And as for war: Is a "war" only a "war", if First World Nations fight against each other?

The USA were also involved in the Korea-War 1950-1953, the Vietnam-War 1964-1974, two Iraque-Wars and those are just the major ones after 1945.

And let's not forget Afghanistan. There is still war right now and there is a big coalition involved in it, even if the politicians use other words.

As often happens in discussions, the theme crosses other topics and you will lose the original thread. This to me is not a bad thing, indeed, it is no reason to further dialectic comparison.

My intent was to emphasize the composure maintained for a tragedy so serious and absurd.

The story, also recently, tells of events atrocious and terrible, of which all populations are more or less responsibles, but it is undeniable that the Netherlands is one of the most liberal and tolerant civil society, and as you well know I'm not Dutch.
 

ihno

Daughter of Deuterium
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
13
Points
38
At first: I don't mean you personally, dargelos, what I write below is based on my experience for years.

Today we in the free world as its called, feel that Russia is our enemy.
It hasn't always been so. Looking back to WW2, we would not have defeated the Nazi menace without the sacrifice of Russian lives. And what a sacrifice that was, civil+military losses in the range 21-28 million. UK and US losses under half a million each were bad enough but over 21,000,000 friends and lovers frozen fried starved smashed and shot. That's out of a bigger country of course but it still leaves me numb with horror.

I don't like to work with numbers, their value for gaining historical understanding is limited. They also often lead to the "football mentality", where numbers are uncritically compared to see who had been "more evil". That approach is flawful, especially if it's done superficially (German revisionists like to compare Stalin to Hitler under this approach to apologize the Nazi system).

Numbers could also mislead. A friend of mine is from the West-Ukraine. We talk a lot about the war.
He was a little puzzled that the people in Germany and other Western countries have so much sympathy with Russia because of their suffering in WW2.

He pointed out that the major weight of the War in the East was on Belarus, the Baltic states and Ukraine. The whole of Ukraine and Belarus were occupied by Germany and only a small percentage of what is Russia today. And that the deaths of the civil population were mainly from those countries.

And so he asked: Why have those people sympathy for Russia? Should they not have more sympathy for Ukraine?

I told him that many Germans (which also goes for most from Western Europe I guess) still haven't taken a good look a the new "confusing" map of East Europe and still have the USSR in mind.

It was not Russia had suffered 17-25 million deaths, it was the USSR. To equalize the USSR with Russia makes the Western-USSR-states disappear, which is exactly what the Russian ultra-nationalists today say.

A country like the Netherlands had a different type of war to that experianced by UK,USA and USSR, they suffered occupation, so they had enemy soldiers eating their food,sleeping in their houses and with their girlfriends, it was humiliation on top of all the other sufferings of war.

The Germans also flooded the country, when they had to leave, which tops it all.

But here again: the western states of the former USSR suffered exactly the same as the Netherlands (except for the flood) and that in a far worse "quality". The NS-gov installed a brutal regime in Poland, attempting to kill the polish intelligence etc.

What they did in Ukraine was far far worse. The Geneva conventions (The Hague conventions, the beginning of international law, were originally made up to have a means to punish the Colonies in 1899 and 1909 btw.) were totally ignored in the East but were valid in the West. When the War ended the Ukrainians had to suffer another time, this time Moscow punished them for collaboration.

Where this is leading to is that while the Dutch have good reason to hate Russia today, if they remember their history and I'm sure they do, they'll still remember the enormous debt of gratitude they owe to the Russian people.

If you perpetuate yesterday's (supposed) friendship, do you perpetuate yesterday's hostility too?

If you say the Dutch should be grateful towards Russia, should they also still hate Germany for the "Third Reich"? And should the Federal Republic of Germany still be grateful towards the US? And how many more decades should this continue? How shall a future be built with the minds stick in the past in such a manner?

There is a point when history becomes history. It takes/took decades and new generations look at the history differently. New generations ask new questions and they have to.

West-Germany has faced the history of the "Third Reich" in different waves. But not just Germany faced painful things, also the other states. Explaining Germany would go too far. But interestingly the treatment is in a way comparable at the losing and winning side (in West-Europe).

In the late 1990s there were public discussions in several European countries about WW2. In Germany there was an exhibition called "Die Wehrmachtsausstellung", which dealt with role of the Army and the ordinary soldier.

At the same time when the new generations in the Netherlands, Norway and France asked new questions about collaboration the old comforting picture of glorious resistance got deep cracks.

When I say the Russian people I mean the honest normal citizens, I don't mean the crooks in charge of them.

I fully agree here. Normal Russians will be normal humans I guess.

What's going on in Russia today is comparable to Germany 100 years ago. There are so many similarties to Germany/Middle-Europe in 1900 - 1930/1945.

The national-conservative politicians in Russia (who are in charge) say that democracy is not "russian", that the West is decadent and that there are "certain russian values" (that are always in a blur) that are superior.

In Middle Europe, (Germany and Austia-Hungary) the democratic system had a difficult start. Before the WW1 the mood was quite similar. There was an idea of a "third way" and "Deutschtum" (germaness) that was and is difficult to grasp, as difficult as it is today to grasp the "russian way". I've read letters of soldiers of WW1, where you can see this "political construction".

After WW1 the victors failed to install democracy in Middle Europe. In 1938 every country of the former Germany, Russia and Austria Hungary with the exception of Czechoslowakia had turned into a dictatorship. Also Spain btw.

There is no doubt that Germany has overcome the “Third Reich”. People often talk about the “economical wonder” of Germany (Wirtschaftswunder). That helped a lot because it meant political stability. But the real wonder is the liberalization of Germany, the “daring of democracy” we saw with Willy Brandt.

What does that mean? Simple: you need democrats for a democracy. Something that the US politics have never really understood. That’s where the problem in Iraq come from.
Vaclav Havel said that it would take two generations to make communism forgotten and to heal its wounds. This is correct, but not only for communism. 1990 + 50 = 2040.

Unfortunately the clock is not ticking in every country. While the Czech Republic, Poland and many others are on their way (let’s not talk about a little torture here and there), nothing much has happened in the former USSR so far. Hungary has turned back to dictatorship.

There is still a long way to go for both Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine desires to be part of the West, which they showed in 2003 and last/this year again. Nationalism is strong on both sides, historical clichés determine politics. I have hope for both countries, though Russia’s way is much longer.

Still reading??? Please don’t forget that I gave an overview here. Not every detail is correct, I had to summarize at one point or the other.
 
Last edited:

gorgik9

Super Vip
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
14,595
Reaction score
17,752
Points
120
@ihno
Am I still reading? You bet I am!!!
Brilliant overview over a very complex - and long - history. Some sunday read (no,no, this isn't ironic).
When it comes to Dutch colonialism/imperialism, I couldn't agree more that it's pretty offensive to name this or any other colonial empire as some kind of Greatness. And as far as I know, the kernel of the Dutch colonial empire for some 350 (from the first years of the 17th century to 1945) years was modern days Indonesia, that gigantic archipelago stretching from Sumatra in the west to Irian Jaya - the western part of New Guinea - in the east.
 

ihno

Daughter of Deuterium
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
13
Points
38
@ihno
Am I still reading? You bet I am!!!
Brilliant overview over a very complex - and long - history. Some sunday read (no,no, this isn't ironic).

Thanks. I have mixed up "decades" with "centuries" btw. Historical revaluations go a little faster than I wrote first. :D

When it comes to Dutch colonialism/imperialism, I couldn't agree more that it's pretty offensive to name this or any other colonial empire as some kind of Greatness.

The desire to have a "comforting" history is a human trait. We all want a history to be proud of or can at least live in peace with. This is a reason for the "hurrah patriotism" but also one major reason for revisionism. Former "Imperial Greatness" is then something that most people see uncritically - if they come from a country with an Imperial past.

But distance is needed for an objective view. Or else you will not learn from it.
 

gorgik9

Super Vip
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
14,595
Reaction score
17,752
Points
120
Thanks. I have mixed up "decades" with "centuries" btw. Historical revaluations go a little faster than I wrote first. :D



The desire to have a "comforting" history is a human trait. We all want a history to be proud of or can at least live in peace with. This is a reason for the "hurrah patriotism" but also one major reason for revisionism. Former "Imperial Greatness" is then something that most people see uncritically - if they come from a country with an Imperial past.

But distance is needed for an objective view. Or else you will not learn from it.
Mixing up some minor things is very human, who doesn't? ;)

But maybe it could be more interesting to have a cozy friendly quarrel about weather the "desire to have a "comforting" history is a human trait" or not. Is it a trait of human nature, an anthropological trait? Or isn't it - rather - a trait of humans in modern societies, where Nationalism is the fundamental ideology?

If you talked about the desire to have a comforting STORY (narrative, myth etc) I wouldn't have any problem with that ; the human being is Homo Narrans, the storytelling animal, as Clifford Geertz said (or maybe it was Charles Taylor, the canadian philosopher?).
But HISTORY isn't the same as STORYTELLING (mythmaking, narrating), at least not the kind of history that Barthold Niebuhr and Leopold von Ranke fashioned in the early 1800s: History as a scholarly discipline, history as eine Wissenschaft. Before that, history had always been an art and a subdivision of rhetoric. (Of course the original greek word istoría didn't mean anything more specific than "investigation"...)

It would be meaningless to talk about history-as-rhetorical art as something objective.

And the kind of scholarly discipline which meaningfull could be talked about as objective history hasn't existed more than just about 200 years.

Weather historical objectivity can be reached or not is yet another question, and I guess that I'm probably less sanguine about objectivity than you. I think that objectivity is a meaningfull ideal, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to actually reach...

I now I think I should shut up. Maybe I've gone too long off topic already... Please excuse...
 

ihno

Daughter of Deuterium
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
13
Points
38
I don't think it matters if that desire is anthropological or not. I could imagine that anthropoligsts might see some roots in the times of Lucy and her friends because it kept the family-group/tribe together but I am not an anthropoligst. :D

And in the end it doesn't make a difference. What matters for looking at it historically and politically is that it exists.

And I also say you don't have to be a "nationalist" for that or come from a state with a nationalistic policy.

And the kind of scholarly discipline which meaningfull could be talked about as objective history hasn't existed more than just about 200 years.

Ranke was a little later. ;)

History as a science came up with the Age of Enlightenment. It has gone through many changes, the last major impact was the implementing of Social History in the 1960s/1970s (a "good bye" to the old fashioned "Great men make great history").

Weather historical objectivity can be reached or not is yet another question, and I guess that I'm probably less sanguine about objectivity than you. I think that objectivity is a meaningfull ideal, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to actually reach...

"Objectivity"... What do you mean? Platon? Maybe there is only the idea of objectivity and maybe a book about the Vatican published by the Vatican may looks things a little more brightly than they are.

History is a science. Science is done by humans, humans make mistakes.

But the way history works is not different from nature-science: Historians publish their works for the critic scientific community. Their work has to be checkable. If their results are good the community says "okay", if their results are bad, the community says something like "that is not very convincing, do it again". That's the way it works.

That can be flawful too. You remember how much I rejected the book "Racism - a short history" of George M. Frederickson and his attempts of locate the racist antisemitism already in Spain in the late middle ages? Frederickson tried to explain that the racist antisemitism came up in Spain of the 16th century because the people there used the word "blood", just like the antisemits of Austria and Germany in the late 19th and first half of the 20th century. Spanish and German experts rejected that idea, saying that F. ingnored that words or terms change their meaning over time. They get "connotations" - a special code that only people from that time and(!) space really understand. We call that "horizon" or "mentality". When a german "völkisch" Antisemite used the word "blood" he had a strong anti-liberal idea in mind which was against the achievements of the French Revolution. And since the French Revolution was still in the future, spanish monks of the Middle Ages could not think of it.

Just the same that when J.S. Bach used the word "symphony" he didn't think of the symphonic sonata form that was invented 20 - 30 years after his death. And so the work failed for Germany and all countries, where the communties acknowledge the german discourse (like Great Britain f.e.). I haven't checked the reception of the work in the US but US american historians often make that mistake (btw. also a lot of american social historians who deal with LGTB history).

Anyway, the "image" of "objectivity" in the sense of Platon is reached by having many many many institutes and persons from many many many countries being involved, who correct each other. It's called a discourse (which you know of course). Some discourses are even in normal newspapers. West Germany had an important discourse about the singularity of the Holocaust in the Early 1980s.

Yes, mistakes that can happen but that doesn't mean to flush it all down the toilet. What would be left? The nonsense of the internet and youtube comments. Views change and the sociological and scientific reception of certain historical topics become a scientific topic itself after a while btw.
 
Last edited:

bigsal

Super Vip
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
26
Points
0
There is nothing to apologize dear Gorgik. As I mentioned the beauty of the discussions is the dialectical confrontation, especially when opinions differ. As a result it is easy to go off topic.

If I had a thorough knowledge of the English language, I'd be hours, even whole days to write posts, especially in history, starting with the oldest (Sumerian, Egyptian, etc.) to this day.

Unfortunately I have to rely on technology that certainly can not replace the human thought.
 
Top