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The World Wide Web

josh_the_hot_boy

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You know everyday we jump on our computers. We double click on Firefox or Safari, and yes even IE. We see that oh so familiar Google search box pop up, well most of us do and most of us just go about our business we don't stop and think hey wait I've just opened a portal to a whole different universe. 99% of us go our whole lives without ever even knowing or understanding even 10% of the the world we just opened. Even I don't understand most of it.

The Internet holds no secrets. We think it does but in reality its just a big database filled with our information. The Internet can never lie. Anything is obtainable even things we think are kept a secret. We intrust our secrets to this great big world that we can access at the click of a button. A world that as I said most people don't completely understand. The Internet has no personality it does what we tell it to. Some people have trouble keeping secrets. They get a container of information and they can't help but spill it everywhere. We think this big universe is going to protect our secrets We fail to realize whats really happening when we click that computer icon. We forget that we've just opened Pandora's box. A world where nothing is a secret. A world filled completely with the truth our truth's.

The Internet is a world where anything is possible. Where anything is obtainable. All you have to do is type in that little rectangular box and watch the world unfold.


This is just something I wrote. I don't mean to offend anyone. Feel free to respond with your own opinions.


Joshua
 

gb2000ie

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Nice!

I don't agree with every detail of what you wrote, but you've hit the nail on the head philosophically, and expressed yourself very well.

As part of my chosen line of work I DO have to understand how the internet works from the very lowest to the very highest levels. What I love about it is that it's one of those things that gets MORE wondrous as you learn more about how it really works. It's fascinating what has been built using only the very simplest of building blocks. It definitely has emergent properties, and knowing how it works doesn't explain what it's become in our lives at all.

So, what do I disagree about, truth. The internet contains a lot of truth, but it contains many more lies. If you have the skills to sort the wheat from the chaff it offers more truth and knowledge than any human could ever obsorb over a thousand lifetimes, but if you lack the skills to evaluate information, it will confirm every insane theory or idea you ever had, and fill your mind with dangerous nonsense that kills real people in the real world. If you think I'm exaggerating, think what effect taking a useless homoeopathic remedy for malaria, rather than an actual drug, has on people travelling to Africa!

The internet is a universal enabler, enabling evil every bit as much as enabling good. We'd just better hope the good out-numbers the bad!

B.
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Nice! So, what do I disagree about, truth. The internet contains a lot of truth, but it contains many more lies. If you have the skills to sort the wheat from the chaff it offers more truth and knowledge than any human could ever obsorb over a thousand lifetimes, but if you lack the skills to evaluate information, it will confirm every insane theory or idea you ever had, and fill your mind with dangerous nonsense that kills real people in the real world. If you think I'm exaggerating, think what effect taking a useless homoeopathic remedy for malaria, rather than an actual drug, has on people travelling to Africa! B.

Oh do I ever agree with this part. I am also a System Admin and right now I'm in Australia watching what my network is doing at home :) far away in Canada. In a snap I can turn off a computer and turn it back on just by pressing a single button.

The information contains on the Internet is not symbol of truth and that is so true. We have seen it here in GH where sometimes some very skillful people, those whom actually were sitting on the school bench to learn what you believe to be right in Wikipedia and we somehow being challenged by less than exact or researched preconceived replies by people who believe that the Internet hold the absolute truth. When one watch a documentary... do you immediately believe what's being unfold in the the doc or you will take each discussed point of the documentary and thoroughly research each subject in order to have a more significant understanding of what have been under-developed in the said documentary. I know I will. ;)
 

hawtsean

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The Internet holds no secrets. We think it does but in reality its just a big database filled with our information. The Internet can never lie.
Josh, you're essentially correct. The internet is merely a collection of computer servers, providing data traffic delivery to and from individual computers. The internet cannot lie, its not a person. BUT, people can and do lie every microsecond of the day. People place information (data) on the internet that is untrue, or partially true, or incomplete - and other people fail to research or use simple common sense when browsing.........and so they blindly accept whatever they see on the internet. There's the inherent danger in believing everything you read on the world wide web, without taking the time to do a bit of basic research or investigation.

Years ago, when libraries (yeah, real printed books, what a concept ) were the place one went to research, verify and validate what you had learned, there was little chance of someone faking others out with bogus bullshit opinions passed off as truth and factual info. These days, many people have lost the ability and the gumption to verify something before believing it. Too bad, that. Making data fast and easy to obtain seems to have blinded society to how gullible folks may be; and how there is always some scam or other to trip those gullible guys up.

Old saying - too soon young, too late smart.
 

c750dt

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Internet can be summed up with two words: music and porn!
 

josh_the_hot_boy

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I know that people can lie but the Internet the Internet does exactly what we tell it to do. The Internet stores information. We expect the Internet to protect our information but it can't. Anyone can access anything at anytime no matter how well we protect it or bury it in the confines of the web. It is up to people to protect information not the Internet. It just stores it for us but sometimes we forget that. We think we can just post it up there and that it will be safe. Some people don't think before they click that icon. They just jump right in.

But anyways like I said just something I wrote. Not meant to offend anyone.
 

hawtsean

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We expect the Internet to protect our information but it can't. Anyone can access anything at anytime no matter how well we protect it or bury it in the confines of the web. It is up to people to protect information not the Internet.

Josh. with respect and appreciation for your zeal, I believe you are confusing people and the internet. The internet is an electronic highway, and cannot DO anything that is not commanded and programmed by people.

People are the ones who design the software that runs the internet, people are the ones who can protect data or corrupt it. All the internet is, simplified, is a long wire with some tin cans to hold stuff at either end. As far as security, well anything that one guy can encrypt and hide, another guy can find and decrypt and steal. However, for almost all the users of the internet, the most basic security precautions will absolutely keep their critical data out of the hands of thieves.

NOT storing passwords, bank account info, social security numbers, credit card info is the first step. Very simple, but critical. Most folk are kinda lazy and allow some onboard program to store this data in their machine, so that they don't have to keyboard it in again and again. BIG MISTAKE! Those stored files containing login info (cookies, etc.) are among the first places that a trojan or virus will attack, to hunt and steal. Even encrypting them is not a sure defense - look how major corps have been invaded, hacked, cracked and had data stolen or misused; and they run much higher security than your home computer has.

The basics are: never keep any data on your machine that you wouldn't want someone to steal and profit by --- anything to do with money and your credit and your personal life. Then, step two is just as easy - NEVER respond to any email that arrives offering you anything of any kind, if you don't know the sender. It doesn't matter if it looks like it comes from your bank or credit card company........ask your bank people personally, and they'll confirm that they NEVER use email to alert you of credit problems, and they will NEVER ask you to to disclose your password for any reason. They already can see it in their system, so they will never ask it. Common sense, and a healthy bit of cynicism are the best protection against fraud and data theft.

We are still responsible for not letting our personal info get misused. Long before some security firm or internet protector does their thing, we need to assume responsibility for our stuff. That's the real deal for internet security.
 

josh_the_hot_boy

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That's my point though some people forget that the Internet is a machine and that people are responsible for what information is out there and what they do with it.. People think that the Internet is going to protect their information but its people who are responsible for protecting their information.

Anyways I understand your point and sometimes my thoughts run wild.
 

gb2000ie

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We seem to be mixing up the concepts of truth and privacy - not at all the same thing.

I was only talking about truth, I did not at all address the privacy issue. Hawtsean has summed up the privacy thing nicely, so there's no point in my just saying the same thing a different way.

Ultimately, though, the Internet is a tool created by man, used by man, operated by man, and designed by man. It's got human short comings written all over it! If it were a perfect system then ARP would have ANY sort of security model built in, DNS would have always been secure and we wouldn't be trying to hack encryption onto it badly with DNSSEC, all connections would be encrypted by design, and IPv6 would have been built in from the start, and would actually work!

For me the miracle is that the internet works at all - it's so complex, and so imperfect, that you'd expect it to be a total failure, and yet, magically, it works, and it lets us do our banking, our shopping, our chatting, our media purchases and so on and so forth. Very few things that are as fundamentally broken as the internet actually work at all!

B.
 

hawtsean

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Very few things that are as fundamentally broken as the internet actually work at all!
B.

Bart, a question for you if I may, as your network expertise far surpassed the little I have: is the fact that the internet continues to function despite all the glitches due to fault-tolerance and workarounds designed into the software? If so, or something of that nature, how much better could it be (pipe dream) if the software wasn't buggy to begin with?

My meager experiments in writing code to produce menu screens and such clearly demonstrated to me the need for debugging and more debugging, every time a single bit is changed.
 

gb2000ie

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Bart, a question for you if I may, as your network expertise far surpassed the little I have: is the fact that the internet continues to function despite all the glitches due to fault-tolerance and workarounds designed into the software? If so, or something of that nature, how much better could it be (pipe dream) if the software wasn't buggy to begin with?

My meager experiments in writing code to produce menu screens and such clearly demonstrated to me the need for debugging and more debugging, every time a single bit is changed.

That's a very interesting question, let me try my best to address it, but I need to give you some background first.

The internet has it's origins in the cold war era, and it was designed and developed as a military network, so from day 1 it was designed to be able to work around vast chunks of it's infrastructure literally vanishing in a mushroom cloud!

So, at it's heart, it has a certain kind of resiliency designed into it.

Now - something else to understand about computer code is that old code is the most stable kind, the more time you have to beat bugs out of code the more stable it gets. New code is scary, old code is reasuring!

So, the internet was designed to be robust in a certain way, and the code at the heart of it is very old and well matured, so, it is fair to say that the core of the internet behaves as designed.

HOWEVER, the design has two fundamental flaws:
1) it was never intended to scale to this size
2) security was IGNORED in the design

So, all the security we have has been crudely bolted on after the fact. It is, for want of a better word, a hack, all of it!

If you care about the details, you can read the long detailed description of the very worst of the flaws with the design of the internet below, if not, here's a quick summing up:

The internet protocols are very stable because the code is old, it does work as designed. However, although the design is very resilient to hardware failures, security was not even considered in the design, so there is ZERO support for it at the lowest levels! We have crudely tried to layer some security over the insecure core, but that really is a hack, and it's just as buggy as you'd expect any hack to be!

B.

-----------------------------------------
Nerdy details:


The way the internet works is that it's a layered protocol, with each layer providing different functionality, and all higher layers building on the ones below. The very lowest layer, the so-called Physical layer deals with the simple task of getting one packet of data from one computer to another computer directly connected to it. At that level, there are no IP addresses, they do not exist. The most common Layer 1 protocol is ethernet (wifi is the same protocol but over radio waves instead of copper wire), and the ethernet protocol only uses MAC addresses to refer to machines.

Layer 2 deals with getting a single packet of data from any machine to any other machine on the internet, and that's where IP addresses come in, the protocol use in Layer 2 is the Internet Protocol (or IP). IP works by stringing together a number of uses of Layer 1 protocols into a full path from point A to point B. The packets will cross each 'hop' from one router to the next to the next using layer 1, and each time it will have a different MAC address that is only valid on the one link it is passing through at that time.

Thinking about this, it soon becomes clear that you need a protocol to translate between MAC addresses in Layer 1, and IP addresses in Layer 2, that protocol is ARP, and it's probably the most used protocol on the entire internet. The bad news it has ZERO security. It was designed with the assumption that there would be no rogue machines on the network. All you have to do to listen in to everyone's traffic who is on the same network as you is to send out a fake ARP packet advertising your MAC address as the one that matches the IP address for the router, suddenly, all traffic that tries to go to the internet goes to your machine! You can read it, edit it, what ever, and then pass it on to the real MAC address of the router to let it out onto the network. If you also send out a few more spoofed ARP packets pretending to be every IP address on the LAN, then all traffic coming in from the internet to anyone on the network is sent to you, where you can read it, edit it, what ever, and then pass it on to their real MAC address. This is how people can sniff your traffic at Star Bucks!

The problem is that ARP is a trusting protocol, all ARP packets are taken at face value by the protocol, so a nefarious person can really muck things up!

Lets take things up a level, Layer 1 gets you from one computer to another that is directly connected to it, Layer 2 gets one single packet from any point on the internet to any other point, so that brings us to Layer 3, which allows us to get a stream of data from one point on the internet to any other. Packets are tiny, we're talking KBs not MBs, and let alone GBs, so to send any amount of data at all you need to break it into lots of packets that need to get re-assembled on the far side. Each packet fends for itself on the internet, and there is no guarantee that any one packet that is sent ever arrives, and each packet can take a different route through the internet, so they won't arrive in the same order they were sent either. Layer 3 deals with these problems. The two most common Layer 3 protocols are TCP and UDP. (this is why our internet protocol stack as a whole is called the TCP/IP network stack). Again, like Layer 1 and Layer 2, there is ZERO security built into Layer 3, so all data is un-encrypted, and can be tampered with as it passes through the internet.

The last of the three mega-flaws is the DNS system. The internet works on IP addresses for all communication, but humans do not, they use nice easy to remember names instead. We don't go to 74.125.230.112 when we want to search the web, we instead go to www.google.com! There has to be a mapping from IP addresses to names, and from names to IP addresses, and that's what DNS does. Again, like ARP and TCP/UDP, DNS was also designed without ANY concept of security, so again, it is possible to intercept and modify DNS packets on the network, and when you do that you can redirect people to go to your server instead of where they wanted to go. This kind of attack is very dangerous because if you combine it with a phising email telling peopel to go to say paypal.com, then when they type paypal.com into their browser they will NOT go to the real paypal servers, but to the attacker's servers instead. The address bar will look right, but you won't be where you think you are!

We have tried to fix, or at least mitigate all these shortcoming using hacks since, but we haven't gotten very far. If you buy VERY expensive managed switches for a few grand each then you can have the switches lock physical ethernet ports to particular MAC addresses, preventing ARP spoofing. This is not cheap, not easy to manage, and more often than not, not done! We have protocols like SSL & TLS that allow us to secure TCP connections. It's SSL/TLS that makes HTTPS, SSH, VPNs, secure IMAP/POP/SMTP, and much more, possible. But, even SSL & TLS is imperfect. We're also scrambling to fix the DNS system by using something called DNSSEC, but the rollout has been REALLY slow. Then you have the fact that the internet is bigger than it was designed to be, so we have run out of IPv4 addressees, and need to move to IPv6, but that's proving difficult and slow.

When I say the internet is fragile it's these kinds of things I mean, and I haven't even looked at website security issues, that's a whole other kettle of fish that happens in the so-called Application Layer, which is the 4th and final layer of the TCP/IP networking model.

B.
 

hawtsean

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That's a very interesting question, let me try my best to address it, but I need to give you some background first.
Thanks very much indeed Bart, and I much prefer the detailed answer. I do understand the layers at a basic level and am comfy with a bit of network tinkering in TCP/TP, but your explanation was a good summary of the what and why.

Thanks again:):thumbs up:
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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How about a little back in the day of the internet history

You guys remember Mosaic... the first browser ever, the war between Microsoft and Netscape ahhh good time goood time... Bart you'll love that one... although it is a very at large documentary it does bring back some interesting memories of my now death Prodigy Browser... the ancestor of Mozilla. Anyhow... here's the link below:

Anonym zu topdocumentaryfilms.com/download-true-story-internet/

Also in complement of what you wrote about the OSI model level which are layer 1 and 2 definitely related to Internet, and it's communication protocole... here's the chart of the 7 layers of the OSI model... now NOT you GB lol who can tell where Microsoft is on that scale?


 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Nerdy details:


The way the internet works is that it's a layered protocol, with each layer providing different functionality, and all higher layers building on the ones below. The very lowest layer, the so-called Physical layer deals with the simple task of getting one packet of data from one computer to another computer directly connected to it. At that level, there are no IP addresses, they do not exist. The most common Layer 1 protocol is ethernet (wifi is the same protocol but over radio waves instead of copper wire), and the ethernet protocol only uses MAC addresses to refer to machines.

Layer 2 deals with getting a single packet of data from any machine to any other machine on the internet, and that's where IP addresses come in, the protocol use in Layer 2 is the Internet Protocol (or IP). IP works by stringing together a number of uses of Layer 1 protocols into a full path from point A to point B. The packets will cross each 'hop' from one router to the next to the next using layer 1, and each time it will have a different MAC address that is only valid on the one link it is passing through at that time.

Thinking about this, it soon becomes clear that you need a protocol to translate between MAC addresses in Layer 1, and IP addresses in Layer 2, that protocol is ARP, and it's probably the most used protocol on the entire internet. The bad news it has ZERO security. It was designed with the assumption that there would be no rogue machines on the network. All you have to do to listen in to everyone's traffic who is on the same network as you is to send out a fake ARP packet advertising your MAC address as the one that matches the IP address for the router, suddenly, all traffic that tries to go to the internet goes to your machine! You can read it, edit it, what ever, and then pass it on to the real MAC address of the router to let it out onto the network. If you also send out a few more spoofed ARP packets pretending to be every IP address on the LAN, then all traffic coming in from the internet to anyone on the network is sent to you, where you can read it, edit it, what ever, and then pass it on to their real MAC address. This is how people can sniff your traffic at Star Bucks!

The problem is that ARP is a trusting protocol, all ARP packets are taken at face value by the protocol, so a nefarious person can really muck things up!

Lets take things up a level, Layer 1 gets you from one computer to another that is directly connected to it, Layer 2 gets one single packet from any point on the internet to any other point, so that brings us to Layer 3, which allows us to get a stream of data from one point on the internet to any other. Packets are tiny, we're talking KBs not MBs, and let alone GBs, so to send any amount of data at all you need to break it into lots of packets that need to get re-assembled on the far side. Each packet fends for itself on the internet, and there is no guarantee that any one packet that is sent ever arrives, and each packet can take a different route through the internet, so they won't arrive in the same order they were sent either. Layer 3 deals with these problems. The two most common Layer 3 protocols are TCP and UDP. (this is why our internet protocol stack as a whole is called the TCP/IP network stack). Again, like Layer 1 and Layer 2, there is ZERO security built into Layer 3, so all data is un-encrypted, and can be tampered with as it passes through the internet.

The last of the three mega-flaws is the DNS system. The internet works on IP addresses for all communication, but humans do not, they use nice easy to remember names instead. We don't go to 74.125.230.112 when we want to search the web, we instead go to www.google.com! There has to be a mapping from IP addresses to names, and from names to IP addresses, and that's what DNS does. Again, like ARP and TCP/UDP, DNS was also designed without ANY concept of security, so again, it is possible to intercept and modify DNS packets on the network, and when you do that you can redirect people to go to your server instead of where they wanted to go. This kind of attack is very dangerous because if you combine it with a phising email telling peopel to go to say paypal.com, then when they type paypal.com into their browser they will NOT go to the real paypal servers, but to the attacker's servers instead. The address bar will look right, but you won't be where you think you are!

We have tried to fix, or at least mitigate all these shortcoming using hacks since, but we haven't gotten very far. If you buy VERY expensive managed switches for a few grand each then you can have the switches lock physical ethernet ports to particular MAC addresses, preventing ARP spoofing. This is not cheap, not easy to manage, and more often than not, not done! We have protocols like SSL & TLS that allow us to secure TCP connections. It's SSL/TLS that makes HTTPS, SSH, VPNs, secure IMAP/POP/SMTP, and much more, possible. But, even SSL & TLS is imperfect. We're also scrambling to fix the DNS system by using something called DNSSEC, but the rollout has been REALLY slow. Then you have the fact that the internet is bigger than it was designed to be, so we have run out of IPv4 addressees, and need to move to IPv6, but that's proving difficult and slow.

When I say the internet is fragile it's these kinds of things I mean, and I haven't even looked at website security issues, that's a whole other kettle of fish that happens in the so-called Application Layer, which is the 4th and final layer of the TCP/IP networking model.

B.
You are such a NERD :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 

gb2000ie

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Thanks for the link Jake!

As for the 7-layer OSI model - it's an exercise in mental masturbation more than anything else if you ask me. I don't know of a single real world network that works on these 7 layers, everyone is using the much more sensible 4-layer TCP/IP model.

Like all other Computer Science students I had to learn the 7-layer model, but it's something I've never once needed outside the exam hall!

B.
 

gb2000ie

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You are such a NERD :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I like to know how my computer works :)

I'm obviously not an expert on all of it, but I have a basic grasp of how everything in my computer works, from the logic gates that make up the CPU, to the RAM, and hard drive, to the architecture of operating systems, to the internet and so on and so forth. I don't like black boxes - I want to know what makes things tick :)

B.
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Thanks for the link Jake!

As for the 7-layer OSI model - it's an exercise in mental masturbation more than anything else if you ask me. I don't know of a single real world network that works on these 7 layers, everyone is using the much more sensible 4-layer TCP/IP model.

Like all other Computer Science students I had to learn the 7-layer model, but it's something I've never once needed outside the exam hall!

B.
Darn right... even in programming we don't care much about the other Layers... the only application from Microsoft I have seen that does some how force you to use these layer is Dynamics Ax series of ERP management software
 

gb2000ie

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Some of you may enjoy this cool animated look at the internet, following a little packet as it makes it's way around the world. It's a decade old now, and a little out of date in some ways, not to mention over-simplified, but non-the-less very cool IMO!



B.
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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I like to know how my computer works :)

I'm obviously not an expert on all of it, but I have a basic grasp of how everything in my computer works, from the logic gates that make up the CPU, to the RAM, and hard drive, to the architecture of operating systems, to the internet and so on and so forth. I don't like black boxes - I want to know what makes things tick :)

B.
Hear you on that, that's why as a kid I used to break everything electronic in the house (even my uncle's pacemaker :rofl:)... when a good slap on the TV wouldn't work I'd play the surgeon and open the damn thing and break it some more... I've broke so so so many computers in my young age... but hey it was necessary I'm equivalent to a Wintel Engineer and a CCVP cisco certified today... breaking stuff does pays... I never actually went for computer degree... I didn't believe them when they said that it was the work of the future... remember the huge wave of Analyst Programmers their was at the end of the 90... they all went jobless and went back to school to learn administration lol. I started with Administration. ;)
 
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