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Are Christians Right About Gay Marriage?

W!nston

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I read this editorial. I think everyone in the Gay community should read it.

Don't be misled by the title. The author is not advocating for the Christian lobby who is trying to derail the Gay Marriage juggernaut.

His point is the same as the one I've been making for years.

I hope you will take the time to read it then consider what he has to say. You may be surprised.

********** ********** ********** ********** **********

Are Christians Right About Gay Marriage?
By Jay Michaelson May 27 2014 The Daily Beast

Same-sex marriage is becoming a national inevitability. A cascade of court opinions, significant public support, not to mention increasingly sympathetic gay couples and increasingly implausible opposition—all these and more point to an emerging national consensus that “gay marriage” is actually a form of “marriage.” It’s not exactly clear when the hump took place—but we definitely seem to be over it.

Which leads to a perfectly logical question: What’s next? Moderates and liberals have argued that same-sex marriage is No Big Deal—it’s the Same Love, after all, and gays just want the same lives as everyone else. But further right and further left, things get a lot more interesting. What if gay marriage really will change the institution of marriage, shifting conceptions around monogamy and intimacy? On the other hand, what if the domesticating institution of marriage changes—and even erases—the more libertine tendencies of gay culture?

Obviously, we now know that the sky doesn’t fall when gays get married. Contrary to the hysterical claims that same-sex marriage would threaten marriage in general, 10 years of experience in Massachusetts have shown the opposite: The divorce rate has gone down, and straight kids aren’t suddenly turning gay.

At the same time, there is some truth to the conservative claim that gay marriage is changing, not just expanding, marriage. According to a 2013 study, about half of gay marriages surveyed (admittedly, the study was conducted in San Francisco) were not strictly monogamous

This fact is well-known in the gay community—indeed, we assume it’s more like three-quarters. But it’s been fascinating to see how my straight friends react to it. Some feel they’ve been duped: They were fighting for marriage equality, not marriage redefinition. Others feel downright envious, as if gays are getting a better deal, one that wouldn’t work for straight couples. Maybe they’re right; women are from Venus, after all. Right?

If you think about it, actual monogamy has never been the Western norm. A monogamous ideal, sure—but men could always sleep around, hire prostitutes, and even have long-term affairs with few societal consequences. After all, it’s not single men who’ve made prostitution the world’s oldest profession.

Really, it’s only in the last hundred years or so that monogamy has been taken so seriously, starting with the first wave of feminism and the 19th-century temperance movement. (There’s even prostitution in the Bible, for heaven’s sake, as well as polygamy and concubinage, all of which are approved, or at least tolerated, by the Biblical texts that describe them.) The results have been disastrous. Of course, one can’t blame the 50% divorce rate on monogamy—regarding women as chattel unable to control their own destinies surely played a larger role—but it surely can’t be helping.

What would happen if gay non-monogamy—and I’ll include writer Dan Savage’s “monogamish” model, which involves extramarital sex once a year or so—actually starts to spread to straight people? Would open marriages, ’70s swinger parties, and perhaps even another era’s “arrangements” and “understandings” become more prevalent? Is non-monogamy one of the things same-sex marriage can teach straight ones, along with egalitarian chores and matching towel sets?

And what about those post-racial and post-gender millennials? What happens when a queer-identified, mostly-heterosexual woman with plenty of LGBT friends gets married? Do we really think that because she is “from Venus,” she will be interested in a heteronormative, sex-negative, patriarchal system of partnership?

If not, the future of marriage, in fact, may turn out to be a lot like the Christian Right’s nightmare: a sex-positive, body-affirming compact between two adults that allows for a wide range of intimate and emotional experience. Maybe no one will be the “husband” (as in, animal husbandry) and no one the chattel. Maybe instead of jealousy, non-monogamous couples will cultivate “compersion” to take pleasure in their partners’ sexual delight. And most dangerously, maybe marriage will be only one of many forms of such a compact; maybe people will choose their own intimate futures without coercion from the state. The horror!

Despite my own condescending tone to the ninnies of sexual repression, I want to admit a certain discomfort with this more radical vision. We are still a messed-up, male-dominated society that has trouble dealing with sexuality. Sure, polyamory works well for a few hyper-educated urban elites. But what about douchebags? What will sexual liberation look like at the bottom-feeding, lowest common denominator?

Will women be even more objectified, assaulted, and leered at? Is the future one long Miley Cyrus video?

Could be. But radical traditionalists aren’t the only ones fearing the consequences of same-sex marriage. So, it may surprise you to learn, are radical progressives.

“Marriage will never set us free,” wrote academics Dean Spade and Craig Wilse last September, just as the current wave was getting going. For them, as for 30 years of radical critics including Yasmin Nair, Michael Warner, Lisa Duggan, John D’Emilio, Katherine Franke, Kenyon Farrow, Gayle Rubin, Sally Kohn, and the “Against Equality” collective, same-sex marriage is a step backward for LGBTQ people and others whose agenda is liberation rather than assimilation.

Why? Because marriage is a patriarchal, sexist institution that should be discarded rather than reformed. Because it is, as Spade and Wilse say, a “tool of social control used by governments to regulate sexuality and family formation.” Because it has, in the past, been a tool of racism and colonialism, and in the present, is a means of rationing health care. This is, as Warner named it, “the trouble with normal.”

Perhaps most importantly, normalizing marriage is a narrowing, rather than an expanding, of sexual possibility. Radicals point out that gay liberation in the 1970s was, as the name implies, a liberation movement. It was about being free, questioning authority, rebellion. “2-4-6-8, smash the church and smash the state,” people shouted.

Can you imagine that being chanted from the General Electric float at the pride parade? Today’s LGBT movement is, at most, about equality—that is, about assimilation. Its defining symbol is the equal sign. Liberation promised greater-than.

If your agenda is liberation, then the vision of same-sex marriage, in which gays become domesticated and live happily ever after, is a kind of nightmare. It is, at best, the squandering of a revolutionary potential, but at worst the growth of exactly what we were supposed to have shrunk: repression, patriarchy, convention, religion. And this is exactly why it appeals to conservatives like Ted Olsen (the former solicitor general under George W. Bush who has won several key marriage cases), pundit Andrew Sullivan (conservative at least in his early writings), and David Blankenhorn, the former intellectual leader of the traditional marriage movement who did an about-face last year. In various ways, these folks have all espoused a relatively conservative social agenda—family, white picket fence, monogamy—and supported gay marriage as a means to achieving it.

Notice, by the way, that the ultra-conservatives and the radical liberationists share the same vision of LGBT liberation. Whether as dream or nightmare, both see it as destroying conventional notions of church and state. The only question is whether same-sex marriage will speed or slow the process. And, of course, whether it’s for better or for worse.

The mainstream LGBT movement, meanwhile, still insists that neither of these futures will come to pass. Don’t worry, they say, we’re not out to smash anything.

Who’s right? Only time will tell.

Personally, I’m not on board with either the progressive or the conservative doomsday scenarios. Unlike the radicals, I don’t think straight people need the gays to perpetuate (or destroy) the institution of marriage, and I don’t think gays were ever as liberation-minded as the romantic history suggests. And unlike the conservatives, I don’t think a few non-monogamous gay couples will turn the world into Studio 54; once again, philandering televangelists don’t need queers to teach them how to sleep around.

But I do like the notion of same-sex marriage as a liberation gateway drug. Inclusion of LGBT people within institutions like marriage will eventually transform those institutions, just as including women, non-whites, non-Anglos, and non-Christians has done. The experiences and perspectives of LGBT people are different from those of straight people, and different in a good way.

So, if I had to predict, I’d go with a gradual realization of the conservative nightmare—only it won’t be a nightmare, and plenty of straight people will thank us for it. Maybe gays will preserve marriage precisely by redefining, expanding, and reforming it—and maybe then it can be palatable to progressives, as one of a multitude of options.

We can entertain these divergent visions of the future because same-sex marriage was really a campaign, not a movement. For a moment, it brought together liberals, progressives, and even some conservatives. But now that its goal is within sight, the center cannot hold.

And then, things get interesting.
 
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jw4833

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Well, due to personal experiences in my lifetime, I have to say that i do not agree that Christians are right in their analogy in regard to gay marriage. I was in a committed relationship with a priest who is highly credited within the community and among the Catholic diocese, and I know for a fact that there are a lot of ministers, priests, bishops, etc. who are appearing to be straight to the masses, but in their private time, they seek male to male relationships. In my opinion, I tend to believe that Christians need to realize that after all of these years that if an individual can "pray the gay away" or being able to change their lifestyle from being gay to straight, I'm pretty sure if that's the case, many guys would have done this by now. I don't believe that no gay guy came out of their mother's womb asking or praying to be gay. Christians need to realize that this is a natural part of a gay man...not a process situation. Besides, although being gay is more open as opposed to many years prior, unfortunately, no matter how much society says that the gay movement is being embraced, it's not. Gay bashing is still relevant and I know personally a lot of guys who are gay but prefer to stay in the closet in fear of being abandoned by their families. I cringe at the mere fact of several Christian and Gospel male singers who have proclaimed that they lived a gay lifestyle and with the power of prayer, they are now straight. If this is the case, then a lot of guys would have been able to leave their gay lifestyle behind instead of learning to embrace and accept it. Lastly, I get really annoyed at the fact that same sex marriages and being a gay person is still looked upon as being a taboo subject matter. It's a no-brainer to see that this is something that is not going away. Therefore, Christians...well phony Christians need to get over it because the way I see it, over recent years, the Christian world has not wore that title in the appropriate manner by being exposed for all kinds of scandals to which they have scrutinized "the common man" for. As the old saying goes..."Practice What You Preach" before you start looking or frowning down upon someone else. From my upbringing with the Bible, one thing that I took notice immediately was that God was love and he loved us all..that is why he died for our sins...so with that being said, if God did not judge..who are humans to do so???
 

gb2000ie

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It's funny how I don't see what marriage means to me in a single line of that article. Church and state seem to be utterly intertwined, and there is no understanding of the vast difference between religious marriage, and legal marriage. It is, in short, a very American view of marriage. It doesn't apply universally.

Having given what is basically a marriage oath to the state less than a year ago, I know very well what it is I swore to do, and none of it involved sex. It was completely about agreeing to live life as a household. It's about paying your taxes, taking care of each other, and those vitally important things you know you will need, but don't want to think about, like hospital visitation rights, next of kin rights, and inheritance rights.

There is no incompatibility between legal marriage, and an open relationship. It's only the churches who give a crap about who shags who, and I couldn't care less what any of them think - there's no room for them in my marriage!

B.
 

W!nston

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I knew I was gay from a very early age. I think I was three when I realized I was attracted to boys but not girls. My family knew before I did, lol.

I understand both of the comments posted above. I think the author of the editorial used the headline 'Are Christians Right About Gay Marriage' as eye-catching bait to reel in more readers. If you read the entire post he is saying Christians are right about Gay marriage as an example of how marriage should be not as an indictment against Gay marriage.

It will be many years or decades before we can see how Gay marriages fair in the long run. Whether the divorce rate for Gays is as bad as for Str8s. I don't think so. I hope not.

I think he is saying that Gays in a relationship should be more committed than Str8s. Gays have a better chance of forgiving infidelity and I agree. I think younger Gay couples might be at risk of throwing away a partner than older Gay couples who have been together a long time and have already learned how to forgive their partner for screwing around. It's easier for a man to understand why a man is unfaithful because the dick has a mind of it's own and we understand each other.

I have a partner. We've been together for decades. Over that time we have both made mistakes and we have both forgiven each other more than once. It wasn't easy but we worked through the hard times. I can't imagine life without him. And we never felt the need to get a contract or have some rag and bone man wave his magic wand to 'sanctify' our partnership.

If we ever do get married it would only be for the legal protections that offers but to be honest I'd rather not go through the motions. We have given each other power of attorney in all matters. We have made each other beneficiaries in all matters. We have left written instructions for our final wishes. We do not have children and never thought of having any children together - other than loving, four legged companions over the years.

I understood the author's message. I hope you will take time to read it entirely and see how he believes Gay marriage might help Str8 marriage.

Sniffit :)
 

tonka

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Married people have been screwing around forever.
At one time there was no std protection, no birth control...and people did it anyway. This is so much not about gay marriage.

In the traditional model, it's cheating. And it is. Cheating, lying...a betrayal.

A new model is emerging. It's not cheating if it's not lying. And sexual intimacy with another person isn't so different from other intimacies.

A wife and husband only have sex together. They don't talk. She has her girlfriends; he has his golfing buddies or drinking buddies.

Another couple are intimate with each other in many way. They also have sex with others.

In traditional arrangements, the first couple is the model to admire. With the emerging model, couple #2 has a much better relationship.
 

topdog

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A couple of thoughts here.

First, I think Mr. Michelson is giving the gays too much credit regarding the changes in marriage. Marriage and family has been evolving since the 19th century when industrialization drew people from the farms to the cities and emigration pulled away all family roots. As others have pointed out, in the last 50 years the changing role of women and birth control, combined with the high percentage of re-marriages and blended families make things a lot different today than the post-war nuclear family idealized by conservatives.

The gays have the advantage of coming on to this with a more flexible outlook. But the straights are evolving on their own. I think the rising acceptance of gay marriage is more of a result of these changes, than the cause of them.

Second, for the gays in the United States at least, the right to marry is the legal key that will open the door to make all discrimination based on sexual orientation illegal. It is not a "distraction" from a gay rights agenda. It is actually a legal shortcut that will accomplish in a few years what otherwise could take decades. It benefits everyone, no matter how they define gay liberation.
 

W!nston

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A couple of thoughts here.

First, I think Mr. Michelson is giving the gays too much credit regarding the changes in marriage. Marriage and family has been evolving since the 19th century...

I didn't interpret the author as "...giving the gays too much credit..." but others might do so.

Your comment "...high percentage of re-marriages..." sounds nice but the fact is the divorce rate in America has risen steadily over the past 50 years even though experts disagree on the statistics and I could not find any firm statistic on the rate. Rather I found numerous indexes and pretzel logic numbers for the divorce rate. The easiest number to quote would be 50% according to most of the studies I found. But that too is a gray number. Here is an example of the problem:

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

it just got more confusing from there...

I think all Americans know the divorce rate is much higher now than at any time in the past. Enough said.

We'll have to wait a few decades for any pretzel logic numbers on Gay divorce rates but I think it will be equal to or less than the Str8 divorce rate.

So I think Gay marriage is changing the institution of marriage. How can it not?
 

gb2000ie

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I think all Americans know the divorce rate is much higher now than at any time in the past. Enough said.

You seem to be implying that this is a bad thing? It is healthy for anyone to be trapped in a marriage that doesn't work? The fact that society forced people into miserable lives is horrible, and I'm glad to see the stigma gone.

I'm not in favour of people entering into marriage lightly, but, if it just doesn't work, and you've given it a your best shot, well, then it should be possible for both parties to get out and have a change of a happy life.

B.
 

W!nston

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You seem to be implying that this is a bad thing?...

Your assumption is incorrect my friend. Perhaps you missed my previous comment:

"I have a partner. We've been together for decades. Over that time we have both made mistakes and we have both forgiven each other more than once. It wasn't easy but we worked through the hard times. I can't imagine life without him. And we never felt the need to get a contract or have some rag and bone man wave his magic wand to 'sanctify' our partnership."

You seem to be implying that the majority of divorces are because they have "miserable lives" and "they've given it their best shot" - poppycock ;)

I'm not against divorce but I do think couples get married without knowing enough about each other and without enough commitment to honor the vows before God that are supposed to mean so much. Especially when children under the age of 18 are involved. Divorce is very hard on children.

Divorce is too easy to get. If there is abuse of course they should separate and try to find the root cause of it with counseling. If the abuse is more than arguing and shouting a permanent divorce might be necessary. Otherwise they should do their best to find a way to tough it out until the children are of age.

But I think the key is to know who you are marrying before you tie the knot.

:)
 
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gb2000ie

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You seem to be implying that the majority of divorces are because they have "miserable lives" and "they've given it their best shot" - poppycock ;)

I guess our experience of divorce is a little different in Ireland, because while it is legal, the one thing you can't call it is 'easy'. You have to be living separate lives for years (can't remember if it's 3 or 5) before you become eligible. In Ireland, divorce really is only for people who's marriage really isn't working.

I'm not against divorce but I do think couples get married without knowing enough about each other and without enough commitment to honor the vows before God that are supposed to mean so much.

Thankfully, now that the stigma against "living in sin" is a thing of the past, it's become the norm (here in Ireland at least), to live together for a few years before 'tying the knot'. That means that people do get to know each other before the say 'I do'.

I agree that neither marriage nor divorce should be entered into lightly, but, I do think both are as important as each other.

B.
 
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