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Auschwitz Selfie

haiducii

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Read an interesting article today morning...would like to share it with you...I think these are some of the most crazy things people do to get attention...WHY are people so crazy today?

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ihno

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I think it's a little easy to be outraged and dismiss those pics as narcissitic and stupid and dismiss the whole youth too while you're at it. Yeah, the youth is bad! Thank god we were never like that!

I think they have the right to do thoughtless things and be stupid. They are young after all. I guess there is some group-dynamic going on perhaps.

The question is: Do young israelis have to see a journey to Poland and Auschwitz merely as a journey to places where their people and siblings were murdered? Or are they allowed to see it also as a trip with their classmates, where they can fun, drink and make stupid things?

Facebook, selfies and mobiles are part of communication of young people today and many older people don't understand it. And if I read the article it's all about awareness of history and responsibility. This professor obviously has no access to it.

History is to learn from but it is not something to drown in. That does not work and will be only met with resistance.

Yes, the Israeli state is build upon the holocaust / the "never again" but I guess that can be overwhelming. But in a democractic society the individual has the right to be him- or herself at first, before being black/jewish/german/russian etc.

Israel is also under constant pressure. Laughter and nonsense can be freeing. It is necessary and freeing sometimes to make fun about terrible crimes and horrors.

Does it work to let people grow up with a history that they have to face seriously always and in deep concern and mourning? It's only natural when they reach the point where they don't really listen any more. And who could serioulsy blame them?

This behaviour is not just carelessness, I think it's also an outlet, even if the kiddies themselves don't realise it.
 
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haiducii

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@ihno: Thank you for those wise words.

I know the selfie has become a cultural phenomenon. But taking pictures at sombre sites such as Auschwitz, Ground Zero and even in front of dead relatives...Oh, c'mon, it is grossly insensitive, not to mention disrespectful, ignorant, stupid, pathetic and shameful.

We were also young and wild (we still are! :D), but ''Thank god we were never like that!''. The youth of today, especially with the" me, me, me" culture, have little morality and even less intelligence. And these idiots are one day going to run the country! I hope, they won't be running anything, maybe a fast food outlet.
 

ihno

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Well, again, I agree that it is not appropriate. And again, they're still children with 14 or 15 years old. Let them make their own mistakes.

And these idiots are one day going to run the country!

You have one stupid selfie and assume a) that those teenagers are idiots who have no sense for morality and b) that they will never change etc. How can you (or anybody else in that matter, don't mean you personally) know that? Maybe one of them will have a good role in life later?

I've been to Bergen-Belsen and Sachsenhausen, each time for the whole day. Their visit will take around 8 hours too. Taking one photo is 2 minutes. It's very superficial to assume that those 2 minutes represent the whole personality of a human.

There are a lot of possible questions which of course you don't ask if you simply declare them stupid and narcisstic:

Maybe they had a kind of personal serious meeting with the place a little later?
Maybe the kids use the nonsense as a vehicle to keep the the historical horror away from them? Would not be the first time and very understandable.
Maybe it's even an attempt of necessary liberation from an overwhelming history? It might not be that easy to cope with the jewish history and acutal Israeli political situation.
And maybe it is even a celebration of survival and final victory? If Hitler would have won the war they would not be there any more. Not a reason to be glad?

There is a site "selfies on bad places" (or something like that), where somebody - obviously in defense of humanity or something, collects the pictures, including those before the coffin of their grandparents. Of course he doesn't bother to make the faces unrecognizable. I think that is dangerous. The real danger here are not misbehaving teens or children, it is the never forgetting internet. It's possible that in 20 years or so someone finds this picture and they don't get a job etc pp because of the snap at granny's coffin 25 years ago.

A year ago a friend of mine died. She was 40 and had a little daughter of 14 and she didn't realise anything. And that daughter probably might have said or done something stupid. That would have been her right and everybody would have understood.

It was around 200 years ago that Rousseau and Kant have invented childhood. This includes the right for errors. And it is necessary, esp. for young people. They have a right to make mistakes without being presented by google like the bad and stupid in the middle-ages at the pillory (Schandpranger). Children are not little grown-ups but the internet steals the "right of the moment", the chance to misbehave without having the voyeristic google-facebook users leering, condem them quickly (and probably harm them by doing that) and then move to the next event of the net.

That's why I have a problem with moralists like the Prof of the article you linked. He writes: "If the story about young Israelis mocking and making fun of death camps as a means of getting "hits" and online attention is correct, then perhaps the Afrotopian black respectability idealization of "the Jews" needs to be reconsidered."

These teenagers are obviously so bad that he has to correct his "idealization" of "the Jews"?
Wow, he waited a long time. I may be wrong (which I'm not :D ) but Israel supported South-Afrika, when almost every other country had embargos running. If you look at it historically it's understandable out of the situation of the time but Israel supported the Apartheit for a very long time. Those kiddies are obviously far worse than that.

In Germany we have a proverb. Let keep the church in the village - which means that one should keep calm and not overreact.
 
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Shelter

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Hi ihno - what a text! Great! Are you a teacher? If yes you must be one of the very best. We need more like you! I've printed your words for myself and my friends. Everyone I know shall read it! Thank you for this in great detail made reference to humanity and for your great words of defense to the youth of this world. Surely haiducii will be right nevertheless too because too in the youth as well as in all the adults of our world will be idiots. Sure such a "selfie" at this place is a thoughtless action but really not a crime. A real crime is the murder of the 3 jewish boys AND the murder of the palestinian boy. Which vengeance is helpful?
 

haiducii

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You have one stupid selfie and assume a) that those teenagers are idiots who have no sense for morality and b) that they will never change etc. How can you (or anybody else in that matter, don't mean you personally) know that?

One!? I needed only few seconds to find pics of ignorant kids all over the world who have no grasp in historical events. I know not every teenager is like this. But in general they're losers who need to get a life!

This is a generation of worthless people. They have no respect, no morals and no sense of what is right or wrong. They think the world owes them...

The amount of ignorance and disrespect here is astounding. Gallery of idiots.

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I was in Auschwitz with kids from primary school some years ago. Believe it or not: I saw some parents taking photos of their children posing as prisoners!? :eek:

If parents raised their children right, we wouldn't see that kind of selfies.
 

ihno

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@shelter: Lol, thanks, how flattering. :D Nope, not a teacher.

@haiducii: I could only repeat my posts.
 

haiducii

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Sure such a "selfie" at this place is a thoughtless action but really not a crime.

Didn't say that is a crime! I just wanted to point out that the young generation has lost morality. Why? The heart of the problem is: PARENTING. But that's another story...

A real crime is the murder of the 3 jewish boys AND the murder of the palestinian boy.

:agree:
 

Shelter

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Didn't say that is a crime! I just wanted to point out that the young generation has lost morality. Why? The heart of the problem is: PARENTING. But that's another story...



:agree:

Here I will follow you in part. I would not go so far to say "all" but many! Yes many young people have only hot air in their heads and no feeling for history - bad or good! And the heart of this problem will not be only parenting but too the school. But I will set the focus only to the school here in Germany. I's not so far away when I was leaving school here :blushing: But I cannot say that I have had a teacher which gave us real concept of history. The time of the 3rd Reich for instance: all I've heard from my teachers to this theme was how guilty we are. And if they tell that to you day after day after day - there will come the day you don't want to hear it anymore. And then I think it will come to such idiotic actions. School, newspapers, books, movies - all tell you what you are for a bad people! Then it will come to reactions. You may be a very peaceful man - but if another man will come and slap you in your face again and again and again - the time will come you will slap back! Surely there will be many, many airheads and kids without any respect to anyone. But ihno has right as well when he said that very often such things are mass phenomenons. I think all human beeings are likle a herd and in this herd they are doing things they never would do as a single.
 

dargelos

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I can forgive them, if you can't be irresponsible in your teenage years, when can you be?
It's the adults I can't forgive. It's the adults who are prepared to stir up hatred of foreigners to make political capital. It's the adults like our unlovely Nigel Farage and David Cameron who will risk damaging the EU for the sake of petty party manouvering.
When I look at those inappropriately smiling youths, I am reminded of how much we owe to the millions who lost their lives fighting fascism. They died so that the youth of today could have something to smile about. You may be certain that if the nazis had won nobody would be complaining about kids looking too happy, in that world nobody would have anything to smile about ever again.
Lots of people have lots of complaints about the European Union, because there is plenty to complain about. But the EU is our firewall against fascism ever returning. A strong union is a way of promising all the millions who made the ultimate sacrifice that we will remember them by making it impossible for anything like WW2 to happen again. Our highly educated leaders choose to ignore this for the sake of making cheap headlines in the cheap newspapers, save your condemnation for those who deserve it.

And finaly, let me agree with Shelter that ihno has been on sparkling form today.
 

tonka

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I take tours with my cousins. Once a year guided tour.

It's not really my thing, but it connects me with my family. I have come to really like the tours. If you only have a week, the guided tours work really well. You wait in lines; I go through.

Eye rolls? yes, I get it. But I have a week. I get to connect with my cousins who I love. I get to see the sights.

A few years ago, the camps were on the list. You can opt out. And I considered that choice. Until the last minute, I told the cousins to leave me out. I'm on vacation. Death camps? Really?

But in the end it's my usual choice. Will I ever have this choice again? Will I ever be here again?
So I did the guided tour of the camps.

It was bizarre, as you can imagine. It was somber. It was not a happy selfie place.
 
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garth33

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It was not a happy selfie place.

This is exactly the point! It's like taking a picture of yourself acting funny lying on a tomb. It's not funny....it's disrespectful! You can't be IRONIC or FUNNY posting a pic where people have died because of who they are or what they represented.

We get it! - A selfie is ALL ABOUT YOU!! you're the entitled generation who hasn't had to sacrifice more than occasional interruptions to your internet service in your lifetime... STUDY HISTORY! learn about the world - appreciate WHERE YOU LIVE and WHAT you have because I guarantee if you're lucky enough to post a "SELFIE" - you have MUCH more in resources and freedom than a lot of people on this planet. You should appreciate that!

rant over, (sorry guys)
g33
 
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lhardwick69

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lets not act like morality existed until this generation--immorality existed way before now even in the 1960's and 70's--Woodstock where people got high got drunk and fucked in back of vans and stuff


hard to say what those people would have posted back then if the internet existed as it does today---


sure stuff like this is terrible and maybe these people don't understand what happened in this area and maybe be taught what happened ..but for most part people are being raised without common sense and patience---

I knew by age 5 to 8 not to kill people or do a lot of other things out there but yet theres been kids killing kids and say they didn't know it was wrong--


yrs ago a kid burns house down he was age 5 because he was watching a show called beavis and butthead--and I wonder why the hell he watching that show--


but a lot begins at the home parents let tv videogames music and other friends be the parent instead of them being the parent--I grew up when I did something I got my ass whipped for it now laws made it a form of child abuse---makes me think of the saying spare the rod spoil the child---



now if a kid acts out he is put on a pill back yrs ago a good whipping or grounding was the cure--

something needs to be done--parents need to be held responsible for their kids actions they are after all supposed to be raising them
 

dargelos

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lets not act like morality existed until this generation--immorality existed way before now even in the 1960's and 70's--Woodstock where people got high got drunk and fucked in back of vans and stuff
I trust you don't mean that there is something immoral about getting pissed and stoned and fucked at pop festivals, do you?, if so I'm guilty as charged. Sex and drugs and rock and roll go together like a horse and carriage (to mash Ian Dury with Frank Sinatra)
To find what immorality really looks like go further back than 1970 or 1960. Go back to 1940, unspeakable obscene war crimes were happening around the world and not just by the nazis. When that is the benchmark for the meaning of evil, nothing else comes close. I am not going to worry about the lack of consideration or respect shown by todays teenagers, they never started any wars, they never invented atomic bombs.
Here is something that really does show lack of respect. At the 9/11 visitor center in NewYork, tourists are invited to go to the memorial shop where they can buy a selection of souvenir tat, coffee cups, earrings, carrier bags, teeshirts. That I find utterly degrading to the memory of the dead.
What can you expect from the youth when the adults set them such a bad example?
 

ihno

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This is exactly the point! It's like taking a picture of yourself acting funny lying on a tomb. It's not funny....it's disrespectful! You can't be IRONIC or FUNNY posting a pic where people have died because of who they are or what they represented.

sure stuff like this is terrible and maybe these people don't understand what happened in this area and maybe be taught what happened ..but for most part people are being raised without common sense and patience---

Why don't you outraged file a protest at the Auschwitz memorial? Or better: go directly to the Public Persecutor in Lublin (he's in charge) and demand that they persecute those jewish teenagers because of disturbing the peace of the dead? Somebody should teach those jews about their history!!! I'm sure it'll make you feel real good and superior.

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Sokrates
 
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gorgik9

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I just want to explicitly thank ihno for broadminded thinking, emotional depth and good writing in this thread.

Otherwise there has been to much moralistic blabbermouthing against kids in this thread. Scolding kids that they're not mature enough is not - ladies and babies - an expression of your own maturity...
 

W!nston

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I understand haiducii's point of view. The elephant in the room is 'poor parenting' and maybe it's another 'sign of the times' so to speak.

The problem as I see it isn't the fact that selfies taken at inappropriate times and places are used like status symbols. The problem is a generation or more of young people whose world (peer group) has lost any sense of respect, reverence or empathy for things like the pain and suffering of others.

The world seems to be on a downward spiral towards the inevitable "Chaos Theory" ending. There's nothing we can do about it. We can sink our heads in the sand and pretend it isn't happening or we can appreciate it for what it is. Either way we cannot stop it or even slow it down.

I'm not Chicken Little. I'm not shouting 'the sky is falling'. I'm just saying... I understand haiducii's point.
 

ihno

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The topic sparked my interest and so I did some research. The elephant in the room is not poor parenting. According to a study by the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung from 2010 the interest of the Isreali youth in the Holocaust has raised recently. In 1998 68% were personally interested, in 2010 it were 81%.

Here is the link to the study. Beware, it's over 400 pages and it has details:
http://anonym.to/http://www.macro.org.il/lib/4809349.pdf

Of course, non of you complainers really bothers. You're just looking for easy edible, fresh nourisment for your own prejudices and an occasion to complain, how bad the world is. You are shocked when gays get persecuted and how they're treated in Russia and other places. "Why aren't the people capable to think?", you ask.

Well, yeah, why is that?

Thanks gorgik btw. ;)
 

W!nston

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I see. I suppose the idea of Order into Chaos is irrelevant to a discussion about differences between generations.

No need to have any further discussion. All the answers are available from science. Nothing worthwhile exists unless it's written by some scholar.

Discussions should never include personal 'opinions' please. Only facts from trusted scientists who have their studies published in academic text books or better.

Well? Yeah, why is that? :)
 
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ihno

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I'm really sorry, I didn't make the rules but a discussion should be based upon arguments and not upon unclear feelings, fatalistic frustration or rants for that matter. That is pub talk but not a discussion.

Two pictures of teenagers are not enough to draw conclusions about a whole generation. The english language still uses a latin phrase for that I guess: non sequitur.

Of course it's time-consuming to check facts and so much simpler to stick with the first-sight-obvious. But if you really want to know what's going on in the world, you cannot restrict yourself on gut-feelings or impressions or you will always stick with clichees.
 
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