Climate-change. Our future. Our fears, and our hopes...

[skyward]

A picture to highlight the effects of climate change.

Anon URL

This picture is making some headlines in the news. It's pretty shocking.

Sadly, our modern industrial society runs on fossil-fuels. Can we really change our ways? I know some people make efforts, but rarely in such a way that true sacrifices are made. For example if you propose someone use a hybrid car, they might agree because 1) it might save them money 2) they are not really required to change their lifestyle. But if you say how about switching to a bicycle?

One example of just how unnecessary a lot of energy use is... a lot of energy is pumped into making eg a computer. We make hundreds of millions of them. Same with eg mobile phones. But capitalism pushes us to keep throwing them away and replacing them, over and over. There is always a slightly improved chip, or software version... but to keep throwing them away and replacing them? Sure it creates jobs, but what a continual waste! These things are literally being designed to keep getting dumped and replaced. This kind of ethos is destroying the environment.

Some will argue that over-population is the major factor. Less people means less consumption. And sure that is one major issue. But, consider this graph:

Anon URL

When developed countries eat up such a disproportionate amount of energy, they cannot be surprised when developing and under-developed countries come to want the same thing. But that's not possible. Ever. There simply isn't enough energy to go around. And resources like oil, coal and gas will not last for ever.

Consider another graph:

It's stunning. The implications are disturbing to say the least...

+ If our energy needs are allowed to remain so high, and we encounter scarcity... that could trigger further oil wars.

Well that's how I understand the predicament. I don't see any other climate-change threads here, so hopefully we can get a discussion going and hear some opinions & feelings. What are our fears, and our hopes?

 

[js324]

USA doesn't need to reduce energy consumption, it just needs to switch over to renewable sources of energy.

As far as China goes, they also share a lot of the blame and get off to easy. Yes they see what America has and want the same. And yes they have 3.5 times the people so they should potentially consume more. However, they're economy has been booming pretty much every single day for the last decade or two. Even now in their slow down it is actually still growing at a rate higher than the USA's. So there's no reason that even as late as 2011 that they should have been relying on coal for 70% of their energy, especially when they were simultaneously flooding US and European markets with cheap solar panels that tanked other solar companies.

There's no reason why a major developed nation like China should have it's capital so often submerged in a layer of smog that 1 or 2 days per year that it's not it makes global news.

China is laden with complete ghost towns, and even the worlds largest ghost mall (2.5 times the size of the Mall of America), due to runaway spending, thinking they will transform unpopulated areas into thriving cities just buy throwing up buildings everywhere and it hasn't worked. This isn't even the only inane type of project they've wasted hundreds of millions if not billions on over the course of the last decade. Instead they could have retrofitted existing cities to work off of renewable sources.

Also while the USA does need to finally ditch coal and eventually oil and natural gas, there's a reason why it's not happening as fast as it should. We have entire industries with millions of jobs on the line, that were founded and created mostly before the boom in renewable energy came around, which is why it's harder in the USA to transition. Yes the renewable sources will create new jobs, but those jobs aren't going to directly go to the people who lose them. Solar will likely make it big in the west and south west, not in Appalachia where many of the coal miners are. Some of it's also down to tradition. e.g. "My father, grandfather, even my great grandfather, was a coal miner" etc, or big oil in Texas.

China has been irresponsible in that they could have avoided the above problem by using renewable sources from the get go, especially since 2000. Instead they've been consistently growing their coal and other fossil fuel industries and have put themselves in a place where they didn't need to be. Where hundreds of millions will lose their jobs, etc if China ever switches over completely to renewable sources

 

[gorgik9]

Great post deserving quality feedback! So I'll get back here and write something but not right now, maybe later this evening...

 

[gb2000ie]

There is no one fix to a problem this big - you need to attack it on all fronts.

You need both cleaner sources of power, you need more efficient devices, and you need to brutally attack waste.

All this takes leadership, and it takes government action - both carrot and stick.

I don't have any children, so if this planet remains habitable another 50 or 60 years, it'll see me out, but I don't know how parents can look at what we are doing to our planet now, and not despair for their kids, and their grand-kids futures.

It's very easy to point the finger at other - "the USA is using far more than is sustainable", "China should not use the coal they are sitting on", "Canada should not use their filthy tar sands", and so on and so forth.

All those things are true, but they are absolutely no reason not to do your bit, and not to continue to pressure everyone else to do their bit too!

B.

 

[skyward]

USA doesn't need to reduce energy consumption, it just needs to switch over to renewable sources of energy.

Switching to renewable is certainly a good aspiration. For example it's possible to place wind turbines off-shore, on platforms that simultaneously harness the power of the ocean currents. IT would involve major financial commitment and investment in the future.

Reduced consumption in different areas is still a priority. For example try removing the gas tank from your car, and instead putting solar panels on the roof... see how far it gets you. Put some solar panels on the wings of a Boeing747. You'll be waiting a long time to take off! Wind and solar are certainly useful in providing home electricity. So what else is there...

How about if you live in a city make sure that it has a proper network of bike lanes. If it doesn't get onto your city officials. Far as I know in order to qualify for certain (federal?) funding they must have the bike lanes. Once they are in place it can be hugely successful. Bikes can be rented and save sitting in endless city traffic. Not to mention they keep people fit!

The main impediment as I see it is big commercial private interests would want to block or inhibit such projects. But there is always leeway to get good ideas through if enough people are motivated and the ideas have practical merit. But there also needs to be a wider change in mindset: sometimes 'less is more'.

Or how about for people who can't cycle to work being able to 'work from home' most of the time. Some companies have experimented with this idea and have found that productivity actually increases + the workers are much happier.

Have a think about what ideas might work in your home, in your town, in your work-place. There are LOTS of people who will want to help and come on board. We are all going to have to change one day (soon) so why not start as soon as possible. The sooner we start the better the transition will be. If not the planet is going to deliver some surprises -no one thing or species on this planet is more powerful that the planet itself.

 

[gorgik9]

I don't think that measuring energy consumption per country/nation is reasonable; the reasonable way of measuring must be average consumption per capita, and I also think, that this way of measuring will make the glaring inequalities in the world show more clearly.

Buying newer and newer computers and smartphones as examples of un-necessary energy use strikes me as the examples the young man would point to...

My first example would instead be all the totally unnecessary packaging and wrapping of everything nowadays: all the mountains of cardbord packages, metal cans, glass bottles, glass jars, and plastic, plastic, plastic...

I personally remember a society - Sweden in the 1960s - where the mountains of packages were so much smaller than today.

And about cars: I've never owned a car. Not because I couldn't, but because I didn't want to. I live in a city with a very well organized bus net, and when I need to go somewhere I take the bus, or the bike. Or my own precious feet if I'm just going from my flat to the city center.

 

[gb2000ie]

I don't think that measuring energy consumption per country/nation is reasonable; the reasonable way of measuring must be average consumption per capita, and I also think, that this way of measuring will make the glaring inequalities in the world show more clearly.

Right - that's why the graph in the first post showed BOTH population and consumption, showing very graphically how disproportionately heavily Americans use energy.

Buying newer and newer computers and smartphones as examples of un-necessary energy use strikes me as the examples the young man would point to...

Also - since newer devices are generally much more energy efficient than old ones, also not actually good advice.

Transportation is the key - you can charge your phone MANY times for each mile you drive your car!

My first example would instead be all the totally unnecessary packaging and wrapping of everything nowadays: all the mountains of cardbord packages, metal cans, glass bottles, glass jars, and plastic, plastic, plastic...

Yea - that is a staggering example of waste in the western world - each week when I wheel out the bin I am stunned that feeding two people for a week makes so much refuse!

I personally remember a society - Sweden in the 1960s - where the mountains of packages were so much smaller than today.

And about cars: I've never owned a car. Not because I couldn't, but because I didn't want to. I live in a city with a very well organized bus net, and when I need to go somewhere I take the bus, or the bike. Or my own precious feet if I'm just going from my flat to the city center.

Ditto - I live 5 minutes walk from my local railway station, which has commuter and intercity services, I live 3 minutes walk from a bus stop, and 10 minutes walk from work. I order my groceries online. Why on earth would I spend money on petrol and insurance and motor tax .....?

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Another important point to make is that the key to renewable energy is diversity.

You CANNOT run an electricity grid on wind alone, or solar alone, but you can run a grid on a mix of wind, solar, wave, hydro, biomass, etc..

Also, the more inter-connectors you have with your neighbouring countries, the easier it is gets to have a stable renewable grid.

In short, lots of connections between power grids, and lots of different sources of power FTW!

B.

 

[skyward]

Also - since newer devices are generally much more energy efficient than old ones, also not actually good advice.

The point about disposing of and replacing electronic devices very frequently (computers and smartphones for example) is not just about energy efficiency. Of course a smart phone of any description requires relatively little energy to run, however I as referring to the amount of energy and the amount of pollution involved in production of each device. Companies that systematically seduce consumers to change laptops etc every year or two encourage waste and pollution is multiplied many times. So to be very clear, the tiny amount of power you consume when powering your device is not the issue, it's when companies attempt to double and triple production quite unnecessarily. When I travel to my local recycling center I am always dismayed by the array of laptops, tvs, phones piling up. What a waste!

But, if you absolutely have to treat yourself to one upgrade after another... why not turn it into a positive. For example say 'before I get the iPhone 6s, I will first save up for a solar panel to heat my water. Then, I will save up for the iphone and that will be my reward.' The money the panel will save you will eventually end up paying for itself and the iPhone!

 

[skyward]

In the interest of balance here is argument of the 'other side':



Sometimes it's good to laugh lest you cry.

 

[gb2000ie]

The point about disposing of and replacing electronic devices very frequently (computers and smartphones for example) is not just about energy efficiency. Of course a smart phone of any description requires relatively little energy to run, however I as referring to the amount of energy and the amount of pollution involved in production of each device. Companies that systematically seduce consumers to change laptops etc every year or two encourage waste and pollution is multiplied many times. So to be very clear, the tiny amount of power you consume when powering your device is not the issue, it's when companies attempt to double and triple production quite unnecessarily. When I travel to my local recycling center I am always dismayed by the array of laptops, tvs, phones piling up. What a waste!

But, if you absolutely have to treat yourself to one upgrade after another... why not turn it into a positive. For example say 'before I get the iPhone 6s, I will first save up for a solar panel to heat my water. Then, I will save up for the iphone and that will be my reward.' The money the panel will save you will eventually end up paying for itself and the iPhone!

At the moment, smart phones are in that early stage of their development where things evolve rapidly. In the medium term that will slow down, but it's unlikely to stop any time soon.

IMO, the key in that situation, is to buy your tech from companies that use recyclable materials, and use renewable energy for the production of their products, and the running of their services.

Some companies make a real effort to use materials like glass and aluminium that are easy to recycle, others don't - we can use our purchasing power to put pressure on those who don't, and reward those who do.

In the modern age, I think the big un-seen energy guzzler is the internet. We think it just exists, but all those data centres take a lot of power to make them go!

Greenpeace to an annual report on tech companies and how they run their data centres: http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/global-warming/click-clean/#report

One of the reasons I'm an Apple customer is that they use recyclable non-toxic materials in their products, and are making good progress towards using 100% renewable energy for production - currently 100% in their US factories, and 87% in their non-US factories (http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.apple.com/environment/). Apple also get a AAAA rating from GreenPeace for how they run their data centres, which use 100% renewable power.

In short, if it changes fast, make it recyclable, if it's stable tech, make it strong so it lasts a long time.

B.

 

[skyward]

At the moment, smart phones are in that early stage of their development where things evolve rapidly. In the medium term that will slow down, but it's unlikely to stop any time soon.

IMO, the key in that situation, is to buy your tech from companies that use recyclable materials, and use renewable energy for the production of their products, and the running of their services.

Some companies make a real effort to use materials like glass and aluminium that are easy to recycle, others don't - we can use our purchasing power to put pressure on those who don't, and reward those who do.

In the modern age, I think the big un-seen energy guzzler is the internet. We think it just exists, but all those data centres take a lot of power to make them go!

Greenpeace to an annual report on tech companies and how they run their data centres: http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/global-warming/click-clean/#report

One of the reasons I'm an Apple customer is that they use recyclable non-toxic materials in their products, and are making good progress towards using 100% renewable energy for production - currently 100% in their US factories, and 87% in their non-US factories (http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.apple.com/environment/). Apple also get a AAAA rating from GreenPeace for how they run their data centres, which use 100% renewable power.

In short, if it changes fast, make it recyclable, if it's stable tech, make it strong so it lasts a long time.

B.

Fair dos to Apple, but I suspect from their perspective their entire green effort is allowable against TAX. Given how they take advantage of Ireland's low corporate tax rate, they should really provide a free solar panel with every iPhone purchased within Ireland.:thinking:

 

[W!nston]

:agree:

Best advice!

 

[Shelter]

:agree:

Best advice!

Best answer! :agree::thumbs up:

 

[skyward]

Matthew Simmons - Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Oil Shock


And in the interest of balance, here are the main arguments of the 'other side':

 

[gb2000ie]

Fair dos to Apple, but I suspect from their perspective their entire green effort is allowable against TAX. Given how they take advantage of Ireland's low corporate tax rate, they should really provide a free solar panel with every iPhone purchased within Ireland.:thinking:

They are building one of their major world data centres in a depressed area that badly needs jobs, so I think the tax cuts have worked as our government planned them to.

I'm not a fan of our tax regime, but that doesn't change the fact that, at least in this case, it is doing what they promised it would.

B.

 

[garth33]

In the interest of balance here is argument of the 'other side':



Sometimes it's good to laugh lest you cry.

Carlin was brilliant and right! The planet WILL go on without humans...it always has found a way to keep existing like every other planet in our solar system...why the hell are we so "special" we think it has to maintain the right conditions to support just us?:thinking:

When we say we're trying to save "the planet" we're really only trying to maintain our marginal hold on it as a place for us organic cockroaches to live. SURE - we're cockroaches with cell phones, social media and wild diverse sexual urges to satisfy but we're pretty small in the scheme of things nonetheless. The planet will go on with or without us. It's up to US to decide how we keep the rent-agreement active.

(RANT OVER:rolling eyes

peace buddies...no matter where you live

g

 

[W!nston]

Carlin was brilliant and right! The planet WILL go on without humans...it always has found a way to keep existing like every other planet in our solar system...why the hell are we so "special" we think it has to maintain the right conditions to support just us?:thinking:

When we say we're trying to save "the planet" we're really only trying to maintain our marginal hold on it as a place for us organic cockroaches to live. SURE - we're cockroaches with cell phones, social media and wild diverse sexual urges to satisfy but we're pretty small in the scheme of things nonetheless. The planet will go on with or without us. It's up to US to decide how we keep the rent-agreement active.

(RANT OVER:rolling eyes

peace buddies...no matter where you live

g

I thought you might enjoy a little diversion after that heavy rant ...

Global Climate Change is real. The human contribution is undeniable but so are the natural cycles of climate change as recorded in Antarctic Ice cores. Whether we are or are not able to effect rapid changes the earth will continue it's own cycles just as our sun does.

I believe we have been affecting the climate for not just hundreds but thousands of years through fire, farming and livestock. We've just doubled-down on it since the Industrial Revolution more or less.

 

[skyward]

Samsø - Denmark's renewable energy island


This island became energy self-sufficient in just ten years. That's how quickly it can happen.

But, it doesn't happen over-night either. Sad to think that the bulk of people will wait until fossil-fuel production enters a state of chronic decline. Then they'll riot. They they will have energy wars. Then, finally, they will scratch their heads and say what now?

 

[skyward]

What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire



This is two hours long but if anyone gets the time to watch it might encourage them to share some of their views on the dangers of our high level of fossil fuel consumption and climate change.