Hi there Logan, well first I would like to thanks you for replying in such a good manner. I feel that really I can discuss with you. I have read your post and was quite satisfied with it since I see in your reply that I sure can discuss with you in a civilized manner, the fact that I'm an atheist and you are a theist doesn't remove the fact that we are all human with our own opinions and beliefs and that those are to be respected at all levels. I do respect theists because I have a profound admiration for human beings in a scientific level I am a sociologist/historian/psychologist and my ultimate goal is the understanding of human behaviors and psychology which is a very vast area. Therefore I do like to have a good grasp of a bit of everything
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However, before I start replying point by point it is important, I believe, for you to understand what makes a person to turn atheist; I wasn't always an atheist, I became a full atheist pretty much 10 years ago but the process of becoming an atheist isn't a one day process when one was raise among theists. I'll give you two examples; mine and Alex's my sweet (except his sperm lol) boyfriend which I love to death which gave me permission to share his story
. Yes Alex is an atheist too but his case is a bit different than I.
It doesn’t matter what happened in my life (this was not what made me become an atheist), yes I had a very rocky childhood, my biological mother died when I was very young but still old enough to remember it plus so many other misadventures, but in between those misadventures there was beautiful time and I stick to those
. My sister and I were adopted by a quite wealthy family which makes us heirs of a quite interesting fortune when they’ll leave this world, however we have been raised to fend for ourselves. My parents have the philosophy that one shouldn’t wait for them to die to start living (which I totally agree and I have applied the same philosophy to my own children). Therefore, like many other kids I had to pay my own education, I had to work, I bought my own car. Obviously since I come from a business and high achievement oriented family, I kind of had already a head start on many of my counterparts and that is why today I am quite ease financially, but nothing was fed to me.
My parents are agnostics, this means that they don’t refute like I do the existence of god, and they kind of followed the herd by having us baptized and all, but we were not the kind of family to go in church. However, other members of my family such as my grandfather; he is what I call a serious “happy clapper” and yes we had to pray before dining, we had to pray before going to sleep, we had to pray even before to go potty LOL and that is every time we would go at his house. When I was young, to me it was just normal that I fall on my knee and pray god when I was at my grand dad’s. And we did love to go at grand dad’s there was always something to do and the place was filled with candies (which even today I’m a serious sugar bug, I pour maple syrup on Alex’s penis and lick it until there’s none left and if he comes in between I’ll just lick it all off too LOL.) Back then I didn’t really start reading the bible, I was like many, just following what the adults were saying… praise the lord for he is our creator, praise the lord for he is good, praise the lord for he is love etc., you know the rest. As a kid I knew by heart all prayers (in French and Latin obviously) but even today, I still can recite many of them by heart and very quick but they mean nothing to me today. So yes I was a “happy clapper”, even sing in the church choir and I had one of the most voluptuous voice and very high pitched, my favorite subject as a kid was Jesus Christ and god, I use to spend the whole 3 hours watching Jesus of Nazareth and the Ten Commandments movies without moving from my couch, I’d go pee only for the commercial. And came the day I started reading the bible. Not to forget, I am a son of a doctor, whom used to care for children, so I was also very versed in medical science and that was something I was very interested in. And never did I as a kid question the role of god and medicine, to me god was giving doctor’s the permission and power to cure the sickos. Hard to believe isn’t it.
So as I was reading through Genesis, I started questioning certain things, because as a kid I was already very good with history (anthropology and history are my first love) and other social science so as I was reading more and more questions would pop up in my head. I wasn’t yet discarding the existence of god, but I was seriously starting to question some parts of the Old Testament. And obviously I started asking very specific questions to my grand dad, which got tired of replying and ended my petition by saying “you should not question the words of god”. Alrighty! If grand dad won’t reply anymore I’ll have to go annoy somebody else so I decided to seek some answers from our priest, and I would quite often stop at church and have very long discussion with my priest, or even my catechist teacher.
Now I wasn’t the kind of kid asking little questions such as why god said this and that and be satisfied with puny waving away type of answers… I remember asking a question to my priest regarding Noah’s boat, as specific as how Noah was able to charge his boat with millions of animals while the biggest boats were built in the year 1900, starting with Titanic and Impress of Ireland, I sure knew that Noah’s story was way too farfetched, they could never answer. So I started using historical logic against the bible and that’s how I came to believe that the bible wasn’t the words of god because way too many things in there made no sense at all, even for a smart but still gullible 12 years old boy.
More and more I advanced in age, experience and logic, adding to my education few certifications and two bachelors of Arts in sociology and behavioral psychology my road to atheism kept being stronger, wider and more specific. At 20 years old I refused my daughter to be baptized, 5 years later I also refuse my son to be baptized. And 5 years after I was a full blown atheist, which means I may not disprove the existence of god, but I certainly cannot prove that he/she/it exist either… so my rule of thumb as opposed to agnostic is that there’s no such things as a god and until I see one before me, I won’t believe it. And let’s be clear, Genesis wasn’t the only book I have read, I have an impressive theological library(over 300 books).
On Alex side, he comes from a family of born again (mostly his mom) his dad is quite reserved on certain aspect of god and religion. But Alex’s mom, Holy Crap-a-roo she’s just plain nuts. She’s not only a born-again Christian, she’s a fetish Christian, with many images of Jesus, memorabilia, prayers posted everywhere in the house, a shrine to Virgin Mary and few crazy rules as do not cross your fork and knife… adding to that the need to pray before each meals. So I did play the game for the sake of not causing a scene, because first I love Alex, but there’s nothing worse than being forced to pray something I do not believe in. So just imagine when Alex’s mom discovered that her son (only son, because Alex’s sister died of a disease when she was about 4 years old) was gay, but just not a little gay, he was extremely gay, they caught him and he’s little cousin Tommy (the one that lives with us now, he looks like Alex, he’s gay like Alex and fuck hard like Alex but he’s not Alex lol) playing touch pee pee in the bathtub at 10 years old. Her mom was devastated and had him meet a bunch of religious healers to cure the gay out of him. One of those healers loved the very cute looking Alex a little too much and abused of him sexually, when Alex told his mom she didn’t believe him and accused him of seducing the priest (he was 12). When Alex turned 15 she sent him to his aunt in Canada (yeeeh for me lol) because she couldn’t deal with all his gayness, she believed that he was a little whore (just normal teenager sexual drive if you ask me) and could seduce pretty much every dudes of the village he came from. Which is a little true, because even people whom aren’t gay would like a piece of that dude… meh too bad he’s mine now lol.
So Alex’s process of being an atheist was based on total disgust of everything religious or god related, he’s not as specific like I am, he just doesn’t believe that if there was a god, he would have let his so-called representative abused of him. I know it sounds a little selfish of him, but he really don’t want to have nothing to do with religion or god for that matter, and now that he has been my boyfriend for about 6 years he does have ammunitions to backup his disbelief, but religion and god isn’t his favorite subject, he’ll prefer to retract when someone speaks of god or religion and will not comment on anything. He will tell that he doesn’t believe in god but he will not give any reasons why. That’s my baby
J. Alex has been extremely marked by his childhood and tried many time to end its life (3 that I’m aware of since I found him in time), it took me 3 years to restore his self-confidence and trust me I don’t regret it one bit. Just last year we finally got him off those anti-depression pills and he’s doing very good so far. So in my opinion, god didn’t do any of that, god didn’t save my dude, he and I did. I loved him so much that I was ready to go bankrupt just to save him.
Although I was raised as an Adventist, I don't believe any conceptualization of the Christian God. I believe in a universal God - a deity of mysterious origin and context.
To me god is a concept and that is in that concept that I don’t believe, it doesn’t matter if it comes from the Judaist, Christianity or mythological ancient gods, I just don’t believe that there is a powerful being watching over us and guiding our every moves.
In my opinion; and that's all it is - just my opinion, because I don't think anyone should shove their opinions of what God is down anyone else's throat.
I agree totally but yet I walk around the city, in buses, on big panels, we see a bunch of signs and messages trying to bring people back to church, on my door step yesterday two very good looking Mormon dudes (they’re so cute I’d fuck them all LOL) trying to convert an atheist in believing that they have the right solution, two weeks before I let in two Jehovah’s witnesses because it seems they had a good news to tell me… I gave them a piece of my own good news too (I don’t believe they’d subscribes to my periodic though LOL). And what about those lunatics yelling in the buses or subways (I drive but do take the bus sometimes lol), passing around their little pamphlets with more than questionable passages from the bible written by archaic Bronze Age men. I don’t go around people houses telling them that there is no god; I don’t have a big sign saying “There’s no sins, only bad behaviors”. If I do something or write a check to a community for some charity, I do not say that god guided my hands; I do it because I can and I believe that one should help each other.
Everyone should try to find whichever spiritual persuasion works for them. Anyway, in my opinion, God's job is actuate his master plan. What is that plan? I don't know. Nobody does. There is a line of progress he/she has moved us through where things have gotten progressively better in terms of technology, medicine, knowledge of science, tolerance and then acceptance, etc.
Sorry to disappoint you there Logan, but god’s plan is a total concept of the New Testament, you wouldn’t hear anything about god’s plan in any other books, therefore I do not believe in a specific plan. What plan? This so called plan was religiously created by men in my opinion, of course I don’t believe in god and therefore I don’t believe in an plan whatsoever; I have a plan, it’s to live happy and makes the people surrounding me happy, but that is not a plan in reality, it’s just life as it is because every human beings are on a quest for happiness, no matter what makes THEM happy. If you want to call your plan a sub plan of the master plan from your god, be my guest, but that concept of a deity plan came with the new testament.
God needs for their to be conflict - for their to be Starvin Marvins and whatnot. In a world of absolutely no conflict, humanity would be absolutely uninspired to progress and become better human beings than what they are.
See I have a problem with that statement; “God needs for there to be conflict – for there to be Starvin Marvins”. Why do theists can’t take responsibility for themselves? Why do they need to explain everything being god’s will? I don’t mean that directly to you, but I have been giving lectures in the past regarding religion and society and I came to conclusion that many theists will refer to god when they can’t explain something, to me is like taking the easy way to explain something that could be researched a little more than to apply such and such situation to an invisible being. As a sociologist/anthropologist I can trace back 200 or 300 hundred years of history of a specific people and come to a more conclusive reason as of why in Mali there’s so much people in extreme poverty, I can explain through historical facts why Haiti is the poorest country in the west hemisphere, I will not result to god to explain the natural concept of life and death. Yes what comes to life will die someday.
I don't believe in the Christian realm figures like Satan, so I believe there is evil in God, too - it's all part of his plan to sustain progress. He has to constantly balance conflict and love so we can as a society learn from "the bad" to be better equipped to create "the good."
All right, let’s take a stroll in the Satan figure… what does Satan means? Satan is an old Hebrew term which means “To obstruct or if you will to resist” Satan isn’t a name, a character or anything liked believed by so many, it’s a VERB nothing else than a stupid verb which has been badly translated among the centuries to turn into that totally unrealistic persona of the half cow half angel being.
The name satan, (satan) - and the feminine form Sitnah: - come from the verb (satan) meaning to resist or be an adversary and is used six times in the Bible, for instance in Psalm 38:20, where it reads: '...they me because good follows me.')
And again you apply progress to the doing of god, that’s where I have problem with theists, they can’t attribute anything to the human, they always feel that it needs to be attached to some ghostly power. Well I don’t, not with my kind of knowledge.
The God I believe in is not the one I think you're envisioning. He/she/it is NOT anthropomorphic. It's not a big all-seeing guy in the sky. It's an invisible force of nature that wanders throughout the universe and is present in the actions of the world.
The god you believe in, in my opinion and from what I get from what you wrote earlier is a new version of the ancient god. The god of the Israelite is supposedly the same god of the Christian and Muslim but each and every religious or spiritual denomination has their own version of it. So the god you believe in may be GOD Version 2.0, but to me it’s the same god, their god has a plan so does yours, they tried to pictured god as an old man etc… you pictured him as energy. If Energy is your god, then Logan my friend we have the same god. But my Energetic god has no plan as that god is US.
I also do not mean to offend you, but atheists also belittle others indirectly. They assume that they have reached a level of enlightenment that others have not - that their epiphany of "God does not exist" makes them more enlightened people.
This one we could go on forever in accusing one another of whom belittling whom and I am not going to embark in that crazy train because when I mentioned belittling I meant “when a group of people believed to be the chosen one, they belittle others” this has nothing to do really with the atheists. Atheists for the most are in quest of knowledge and do not accept easy made answers. I do not believe that a theist is less intelligent than another because at the end of the day many things have been invented by theists (Newton per example was a theist). But when a theist come forward and refute what has been proven to be correct and accurate, then I’m sorry but that is another story.
No atheist can come forward saying at 100% that god doesn’t exist, an atheist saying this is as delusional than a theist that is convince at 100% that god exist. Please take some time to really speak with an atheist, you’ll find out that their not as bad as you think they are, and don’t forget one single thing… for the most Atheists you’ll meet, they were theists. Atheists like you can find out with me are very versed in history, anthropology, philosophy, sociology and psychology, they are for the most not talking unknowledgly. And yes we are enlighten (sorry but I can’t just refer to an invisible being for all the good and bad that happens), but I have discussed with theists that are as much knowledgeable as I am in social sciences and mathematics and yet they believe in a god, but not yours, not the one with a plan. I had the most interesting and respectful discussion with them and some are very good friends of mine.
Let’s make it clear, I don’t hate theists, otherwise that would be to hate ¾ of the people I know. And they don’t hate me for not believing in god.
Many take religious people to be nuts, crazies, and ignorant fools. And to that, I say that I also belittle people indirectly because I also believe that I have reached a level of enlightenment that others have not reached. I just wanted to point out that religious people, or people of faith, are not the only ones that belittle others. Best contemporary examples: You and I. (Sure, we're not killing anyone, but it's still technically belittling)
Sorry that you felt that way Logan, but there is religion, there is science, both can live fine together however you came off with some statements that even my theistic friends would disagree with. When coming up with some statements that have been proven, you can’t just come forward claiming that god created gays to control the world population when we know far well that the universal gay population isn’t even close to 1/8 of the population. That statement was in my opinion pure balderdash and needed to be corrected. It is okay to believe in something, but it is not okay to just waive science in the name of some invisible being. I do not belittle people as I am very open to every type of discussions and subjects, I can speak and discuss of everything and I will also listen and question. But when somebody come off saying things that really doesn’t make sense, you either keep going on that nonsense or accept to be corrected as you know very well that statement like the above make people raise their eyebrows. Like in every society there is lunatic and there is undereducated and not all atheists are highly educated, some just don’t believe and they don’t feel the need to explain why, just like my baby Alex. Obviously Alex won’t be a good listener if you start babbling about your concept of god, does that makes him belittling you? NO he’s just not interested.
Many take religious people to be nuts, crazies, and ignorant fools.
Yet many religious people will feel sorry for us for not believing in their doctrine. Isn’t that another way of returning the same feelings toward us.
Based on your post, it sounds like you have assumed I am still an Adventist. Let me repeat that I am NOT a practicing Adventist, or Christian for that matter.
No I didn’t… if you go back to what I wrote I did mention that you WERE Adventist, now it is quite important that when you read something or discuss of something that you make sure not assume that I said such things. I do not assume and to me it doesn’t matter at all what denomination or sub-denomination of a denomination you come from. The matter and the fact is that you were raised Adventist and you do have the Adventist influence. I was raised somehow catholic and I refute the catholic ways, but I have learned much more than just Catholicism.
I have my very own spiritual connection with what I call God. However, I think Adventists are great people, and many religious people are in a general sense. My uncle was literally about to die with all of the drug consumption that had consumed his life, but once he found the church (even though I believe they are wrong in so many ways), they convinced him that he still has much to fight for (namely, himself, the betterment of himself, and his family).
Good for your uncle. I have helped many people with drugs and other issues without the need of religion, churches or god. But if that helped your uncle it’s very good for him because that’s what saved him.
They taught me values that I still abide by such as not killing others, treating others as you would like to be treated, helping the needy (although I no longer "help" them by talking about Adventism...lol), etc. They also promote an incredibly healthy and long life. They have some odd diet restrictions that many Adventists don't abide by, but for those that do, they live a lot longer than the average person.
Values are first taught by your parents and the people you are surrounded with, all those values that you speak of I also have them but I didn’t need a church to teach me… you go as you grow and that’s how you built your value system.
Adventists are usually forgotten people that are hardly ever mentioned. It makes me happy that you looked them up or that you found out about them somehow. Like I said, I don't believe in what they teach anymore, but I think they are a respectful group of people in their own right that save lives (not by converting, but by literally saving lives through clinics and hospitals).
I can name you hundreds of other forgotten denominations that have done so many for people, I can also name you what I have done without the support of a religious group. I don’t believe one needs to be of a religion group to do great things, you do them not because your Christian or Adventist or whatever other denominations, you do them because you believe it’s the right thing to do.
Also, since I am not a Christian, it really does nothing for me that you use the Christian Bible to refute my belief in God's creation of non-heterosexuality.
Well that’s very good but you do realize that you have a new god, because take a stroll in the history of gods and you’ll find out how gays were not welcome… don’t use divinity to explain your desires because many other could do the same… and will it makes it okay?
You are absolutely right about prayer! For the most part, it's my own human agency that has caused for the things I prayed for to happen. However, I think there's also an invisible force that sometimes lends a helping hand (an invisible hand, that is...lol).
If it works for you good, I also meditate but I don’t call it prayer and it doesn’t go to some invisible hands.
Regardless of how small we "think" the gay population is, would our planet not be more crowded if they were just straight? I know it's a hypothetical, but my guess is MOST DEFINITELY!
Wrong there’s more to it than just a few bunch of people and that is MOST DEFINITELY, I know that you feel to be right, but in my quality of sociologist/historian/anthropologist and psychologist I am sorry to tell you that this isn’t. Please let that one go.
Jake, I read about all of the misfortunes that have occurred during your life, and I am sincerely sorry to hear that you have weathered so mush misfortune. To still be a happy, fun-loving person after all of that is a testament to how strong-willed you are. Although it is horrible that that all of that happened to you, do you not believe that it made you a stronger person, more empowered to try to make the world a better place?
Many people have misfortune in their lives and they either die with it or use it as a catalyzer to make their life better. Yes lot happened, but many other great things happened and one of them is my dude Alex, my children and my friends, this is the circle of life dude, and no matter what you believe or not believe life goes on. Now you are the entity of Logan (pseudonym of course LOL) at the end of your life YOU WERE the entity of Logan. Problems did not make me stronger, the solution I applied to them did.
I'm not saying you have to believe it was God, but you are most definitely a better person now than you were before you knew how mortifying hardship could be for humanity. You know how much it hurts and you don't want others to go through it. I'll take a stab in the dark and guess that you enjoy helping others - that you're a good friend and you're very sympathetic to people that are having a bad time.
I wouldn’t reply to you if I was an asshole, although like anybody else I can be an asshole, which Alex would most definitely loved to fuck LOL.
I honestly do not believe it is bad to be atheist or religious, as long as you're living and letting others live happily without harming others. I would say that I'm agnostic - I believe that there is a God, but we can never really truly fathom him/her/it. I came to this realization when I wondered, "How can I be certain that the religion I was born into is the correct one?" Then, I realized that there is NO way. Every religion, one way or another, has a lot of things I think are just straight-up wrong, and even if there were a true religion (which I do not believe), how fair would it be that only a select crowd was raised into it whereas the others were out there being raised to be some other sect or religion.
Therefore I take that in your beliefs you also ask question, which is according to me the best way to go, one cannot blindly follow a religion because religion is men made, always was and always be.
I feel a deity guiding me, making me suffer constantly so I can grow from my hardships and embrace a better and progressive version of what he/she/it wants me to become.
That deity of yours I call it soul, conscience coming from your true god, your BRAIN.
Jake, I think too many people look at a certain God, like the Christian God, and they deconstruct the possibility of ANY god because that God is so absurd to them. Have you ever felt a deity, an otherworldly presence guiding you or persuading you to become better?
Logan I am against all concept of gods no matter where or what it comes from, the Christian god is a men made god and he was created for the glory of MEN not woman, any other gods are in my opinion a subdivisions of that god. The Christian god isn’t the same version of the Judaist god, the Muslim god is a different version than the Judaist god but yet the same god. Now beside the other ancient gods that were sent to wander the dust of some old libraries where does your god come from? No god can make me better as I am my own entity and I get better by and with the people that surrounds me, they are there, I can see them, feel them and speak to them (with immediate replies). God and no matter which one doesn’t rule my life and doesn’t take decision for me.
I know my beliefs may seem idiotic and moronic to many people, but at the end of the day, they're MY beliefs. They keep me going. They make me have faith in progress, and I think that they sincerely make me a better person. If others disagree, that's fine. I respect dissenting opinions because my beliefs say that everyone has to find what is "true" for them. For some, it is to be a devout Muslim; to others, it is to deconstruct the possibility of the existence of any deity; to me, it is to believe in an invisible force, a God, or a deity, that invisibly strives to make us better through hardship and aid.
Your beliefs are your beliefs and that doesn’t make you a bad individual or an idiot, however through your believe process may I suggest not to wave away human’ science… human cannot explain everything and everything cannot be attributed to god, otherwise we’re all just a bunch of puppets and that is something that I refuse to believe. Most atheist do not deconstruct my friend, we asked question where other just keep following blindly…
Jake, I would very much like to chat with you, if possible. You sound like a delightful person (and I swear I'm not being sarcastic...lol) to talk to and I think we both have great things to share with each other.
Be my guest but you might want to avoid the god subject as I will never bend as much as you wouldn’t lol.
