As is typical....
"your dimwitted conception of it" as well as the many other personal attacks you make against me. Personal attacks are a typical mechanism to avoid answering a single question that was presented to you.
I'm a one the most liberal in the Democrat party today. I'm am one that would ask you to stand up, present your views, and ask you to debate me on each point without any personal attacks. You might be surprised at things we might agree on. What you don't seem to understand is that freedom and socialism are two different things.
So I will show what debate is with my responses of your points below:
"No, actually, the accepted dictionary definition of the american dream is one cheifly centered on financial prosperity and ascending to the middle or upper classes; you can look that up."
I gave my definition of what the American dream was in my first statements; "the pursuit of individual happiness and of individual freedom" To me freedom and happiness is not based on financial status as it seems to be with you. I suppose the greedier the person is, the more important the financial aspect is to them. According to Wikipedia:
The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States of America in which democratic ideals are perceived as a promise of prosperity for its people. In the American Dream, first expressed by James Truslow Adams in 1931, citizens of every rank feel that they can achieve a "better, richer, and happier life."[1] The idea of the American Dream is rooted in the second sentence of the Declaration of Independence[2] which states that "all men are created equal"[3] and that they have "certain inalienable Rights"[3] including "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."[3]
"But no, the entire world was not celebrating US nationalism yesterday, and certainly not your dimwitted conception of it."
Nice personal attack, BTW, I have a 152 IQ and a MBA, so I'm, not exactly dimwitted. It is true, the entire world didn't celebrate US nationalism, I wasn't either, I was celebrating the pursuit of individual freedoms and so was much of the world except for where it isn't allowed.
"And actually, for 'individual freedom' you have to look much earlier, to the age of enlightenment and the rights of man, drafted in France; much later to the universal declaration of human rights, which includes things like healthcare and housing, which some countries, such as Germany and ones in Scandinavia, have fully recognized."
Oh, you mean Jean-Jacques Rousseau. I completely agree with you. He did draft many of initial values that our founding fathers embraced. America certainly drew on many other philosophies from around the world. What I and most all historians agree on is that America is the first place that tried to actual implement these ideas. This is the celebration, that America was the first place where these new philosophies were given a chance to see what kind of society could be built with them. The french watched America implement these ideas and their people rose up in revolution under the great influence of Thomas Paine to pursue the same ideas, but unfortunately, the french quickly gave up on the ideas and went to the despotism of Napoleon. No...my idea of freedom does not include guaranteed healthcare and housing by the government...that is socialism (which is ok too if done the right way, but that is a different subject). BTW, Germany and the Scandinavia countries wouldn't even be free countries today (can we say Nazis) if it weren't for...yes that's right....the generosity of America (and the UK too). You know, we could have conquered Germany and enslaved it as our territory, like the Soviets did.
I need not talk about how in practical legislation and internationally recognized statistics and indices, US is not listed as 1 for personal liberties or a lack of POVERTY; something that a rich senator's son from a right wing family obviously didn't have to deal with. "
Again, a nice personal attack. My family became rich and powerful because of the possibilities of the American dream. I can go through every single family line and go back to where my ancestors all came from poverty, including slavery. Back to their countries of origin where they had no chance to pursue anything better and where in many cases they didn't have any freedoms. So they left, came to America, found freedom, worked their asses off, and they prospered. That seems to piss you off for some reason. Now lets look at some stats. Can you explain to me your theories on the statistical correlation of HPI-2 or HPI-1 rankings and freedom? I certainly wish the US 15.4 ranking was much lower and why I have gotten involved in government to change it. Are you? Now let's say you compared a theoretical "poverty level to individual freedom ratio". The lowest level of poverty countries would certainly would include: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and UAE. Now how do they stack up on the individual freedom scale? Lower poverty DOES NOT equal more individual freedom.
"It is possible to have a million different opinions as a world traveler, but since you are obviously so emotionally and intellectually immature that having a rational conversation about this is impossible with you, I will leave it there; but it is funny how you seem so apologetic and patronizing until you meet a fellow citizen who actually wants to stand up in solidarity with the people of america and the rest of the world; all you have then are stock answers and insulting, stupid questions that you repeat over and over."
Again, some nice personal attacks. You might be right about my emotional immaturity and I do drink much; killing many of my brain cells. But why don't you answer my questions? It is legitimate to imply you might not know things about the world unless you have traveled the world. Have you ever traveled the world? Outside of the US? My viewpoint of the US changed dramatically after traveling around the world. As far as "solidarity with the people of america", you're lucky you have a friend like me who would stand up for your right to disagree and prevent the majority of Americans who would likely want to kick your ass.
"International members of this community will easily see how easy it is to disagree that everything american is the best and what the entire world wants to be like; so perhaps you should learn to celebrate our holidays with more humble speeches."
You either didn't read or comprehend what I said. I never implied anywhere that America is the best or that the rest of the world should be like us. That seems to be your issue. I do think that most of the members of this community do want to pursue individual freedoms for themselves, their countries, and the entire world. That is what my celebration proclamation was about...read it.
I ask the forum members to Vote. if you think I am wrong in my celebration of freedom...leave your vote. Yes, this is a big deal, it is the purpose of my life, my career to stand up of individual freedoms.
And yes, xman, you are right; life was better before the US invaded, and even better before the UN sanctions in the 1990's that starved half a million children to death. They will be lucky if the US ever truly and completely leaves (not a current part of Obama's plan), ever stops dictating Iraqi policy from afar, ever completely leaves the entire middle east.
Actually a country as powerful as the US could have just nuked the population centers and taken the oil for our use (this would have been very easy to do in Iraq). Why didn't we if we are so damn evil? BTW, what was your solution to Saddam...just let him do what he wanted?
