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The Armenian genocide

Shelter

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Hello friends,
this will be a question I'll be very interested in. In the last days I've read in my papers as well in our TV very much about the Armenian Genocide 100 years ago. Shortly I've seen as well a movie by Fatih Akin called THE CUT. The Turkish Government is reacting hateful on the word "genocide".

But is anyone here which can tell me the historical background. Why the Ottomans have had so much hate against the Armenians?

Perhaps Gorgik will answer. He is a very erudited person - and I would be happy to learn more about this crime of the past.
 
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gorgik9

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@ Shelter

I'm honored that you think highly of my erudition, but when it comes to the 1915 Genocide on the Armenians, my knowledge is shallow and very vague. But the German Wikipedia article recommended by Frechgerman seems to be a good read! It's got a very good bibliography.

Myself I've been recommended the books of Taner Akcam and in particular his 2006 book "A Shameful Act".
 

trencherman

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Humans have little tolerance for slight or perceived differences. This is our basic nature only most often intensified and amplified by religious belief and tribal propaganda. Why do you think kids bully weak or different looking classmates. This is also probably why Neanderthals vanished as soon as the Homo Sapiens moved in. This scenario must have played over and over again in so many different areas of the world from the dawn of civilization to present day. The Ottomans cannot scape blame because it was well documented. Same with the unrepentant Japanese in occupied China, same with members of the Cambodian politburo with their own people, same with the Croatia-Serbian genocidal conflict, the recent mass slaughter of Tutsis by the Hutus, same with the white cops towards individual black citizens of America. Given this human propensity, it is truly surprising that it does not happen more frequently. Maybe liberal, humanist, progressive thought have somehow mitigated barbarity and marginally triumphed over violent instincts?
 
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Shelter

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Thank you for your responses to my question. And thank you Frenchgerman for your indication of the Wikipedia article, which has been very interesting.

Let me ask a new question, and I know no one of you or whoever can give me an answer: WHY PEOPLE ARE HATING OTHER PEOPLE SO MUCH THAT THEY WILL KILL THEM WITHOUT FEELING BAD OR GUILTY?

Our lifetime is only a short interval in world history. Why we couldn't live together in peace, Jews with Palestinians, Black Americans and White Americans and so on? Sorry that was only a rhetorical question!

The Nazis killed nearly 6.000.000 Jews regarding of the only reason because they have been Jews. Just imagine it - BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN JEWS!

In Ireland long ago they killed catholics because they have been catholics, or protestants because they have been protestants! Imagine that have been reasons to kill other people and not in the medieval times but in our modern era!

And the Ottomans only 100 years ago the Armenians - and the Ottomans or better the Turks from today are not willing to bear the blame of their ancestors. Charily expressed: That is SHAMEFUL!
 

Shelter

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shelter, I'm sorry to say : what did you expect ?

we as a whole don't care (much) that nearly 200M children don't have enough to eat ...
we don't care that our world is being destroyed for business reasons
we don't care that sous disguise of religion, gays, trans, black, whites, other religions are discriminated against
we don't care that epidemics spread because of lack of funding ... but for the armys, there is enough money !
we don't care that typically 'black' deseases (a friend of mine told me that) are not research worthy !
A young black in USA is not only not respected, but all black youth are considered potentiel criminels (they are shot because they make 'eye contact') ...
even today, jews are murdered because they are jews ... by other individuals (not a group or state action)
Persia and Saudi-Arabia still hang gays (and women convinced of adultery, whereas the adultery man is free to continue)

Do I need to continue ?


We live in a world which has not changed that much in the last centuries. We know more because science progressed and because information is nearly immediately avalaible. But underneath the little layer of civilisation, we are (nearly) still the same since ... always ...

Frenchgerman you are totally right and I MUST agree with you - but it makes me so very sad because we only have to see it but cannot do anything against it. This is really a feeling of totally helplessness!
Is the statement THE DIGNITY OF MEN IS UNIMPEACHABLE really only a nice delusion? The man are the biggest enemy of the man!
 

Shelter

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attention : OT

I suppose you talk of Greece ?
But that discussion is closed since Moscou, if what I read and heard is correct !

Germany, western Germany, has assumed all the responsability for the 3rd Reich. Israel, for instance, would not be what it is today without the German billions paid as reparations.

What I personnally find inacceptable, is that two politicians of today Germany, both politicians from eastern Germany when it was still an independant state, talk about reparations and the right of some states to demand them.
What did the Democratic Republic do at those times ? ... Nothing ! But today, these citizens of these former Republic tell there's a right to reparations !


Sorry, but that's a bunch of BS !

so, if we could close this OT ... or open a new discussion ! that is if the Armenians did not demand reparations from Germany ...

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:
Totally agree with your remarks namely with every word, every sentence!
 
T

tiogilito

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Well, I have written several books on Islam... so this is something I am quite familiar with.

Generally, if you ask Muslims, only Jews commit genocides, Muslims defend themselves in civil wars and people get killed. In Europe in many countries it is an offence to falsify history but denying the holocaust. It should be equally offensive to deny this awful tragedy.

The truth is that in the Ottoman empire Christians and Jews were second class citizens who had to pay "jiziah" (a special "tax" demanded in the Qur'an to be paid by Jews and Christians in humiliating ways, effectively a protection racket: Pay so that Muslims do not kill you.) It had to be paid in person, and when paying you would be hit with slippers or spat on, or people kicked you.

This is where the treatment of Jews and Christians is commaned in the Qur'an:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur'an 9:29

The "people of the book" are the Jews and Christians. Note it says NOT "fight them because they attack you". It says fight them (actually the Arabic says "fight to the death") because of what they BELIEVE, no more. It also spells out why to fight: Collect money from them.


When the Armenians demanded better treatment than that there was whole sale slaughter as a response, as demanded by the Qur'an.

So it is not surprising that the relationship between Turkey and Armenia is strained. To this day Turkey has not even acknowledged the Armenian genocide, something pretty much all people in Armenia will remember because they can tell you about family members who died in it.

You can find more http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.history.com/topics/armenian-genocide

And this clear instruction in the Qur'an is one of Mohammed's last, so it is very important to Muslims, and abrogates any earlier ones. This is worth bearing mind before we here in the West make concession to Shariah law. One day we end up in Europe paying jiziah, unless we develop some backbone.
 
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Shelter

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Thank you Tiogilito for this very well and profound report and for your good advice to the article of HISTORY. I'm very grateful for your post. Once more thank you so very much! And if you will know more about this topic please let us - or me - know. I'm personally very interested in.
 
B

blizzard

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Hello Shelter,

As a gay Armenian, I'm touched that you are interested in the Armenian Genocide. My grandparents were survivors of the Genocide and lived through experiences that one wouldn't wish on their greatest enemy. My grandmother in particular is the only survivor of her entire family, and literally saw all of her family be killed.

Let me make some recommendations for books and movies.

Taner Akcam's books are certainly important and worth reading, but they are more for the serious reader than someone casually interested in the subject. The best overall book for someone who wants to better understand the subject without necessarily getting into it hardcore (which would be the case with Taner Akcam's books) would be to read "The Burning Tigris" by Peter Balakian. It's intended for the general reader and it's really well written, accessible, and just well done overall.

There are many survivor memoirs and all have their interesting perspectives. The single best survivor memoir that I've read--by far--is "Armenian Golgotha" by Rev. Grigoris Balakian. Father Balakian was the great-uncle of Peter Balakian, and the book was saved from oblivion by Peter Balakian and edited by him (as well as translated by others). Rev. Balakian was one of the 250+ Armenian leaders and intellectuals who were arrested on April 24, 1915 (the date in which the genocide began) and almost all of whom were executed. But he miraculously survived, and his story of survival and escape is almost impossible to imagine because it is so improbable. And as a leader of the community, Father Balakian had a vantage point and access to people to better understand what was happening in real-time. But his book is interesting not just because of his eloquent description of what happened, but because the book is as much a book of life-wisdom and philosophy. Throughout the book, Father Balakian shares his observations on life, on what makes for a meaningful life as compared to one that goes without meaning, on relationships, on love and friendship, etc. If the self-help crowd knew what was in the book, they would be reading it in droves and derive so much positive wisdom from it. Overall the book is incredibly rich and rewarding, while also being painful. I can't recommend it enough.

There is another survivor story that has been very well-received, but it's a little different because it's a fictionalized re-telling of a true story. The book is called "Forgotten Fire" by Adam Bagdasarian, and it's his uncle's story told in first-person. The book is touching and very powerful, and it's a relatively quick read.

The definitive movie on the Armenian Genocide has not yet been made, but one extremely good one is "The Lark Farm" by the Taviani brothers from 2007. It's actually a completely true story, and is deeply moving, deeply sad, and exceptionally well done. It tells one family's story, and the events depicted in the movie actually happened (I had my doubts that it could all be true, but upon investigating the matter, I learned that in fact it was). And anyone who loves world cinema would be familiar with the Taviani brothers, who have made many memorable films and bring their own distinct style to the story. It's an excellent film. Atom Egoyan made a powerful movie that is about the genocide but gets at the subject somewhat indirectly, called "Ararat." But the problem with Ararat is that it's a film for Armenians, and it assumes that the viewer knows the history and the story and a lot of other related things which most viewers will not know, and as a result non-Armenians find this too difficult a film to truly understand let alone appreciate. I wish Egoyan had made a more accessible movie that did not assume that so much was already understood, but as someone who did have that perspective, let me assure you I was in a flood of tears when the film ended. [My non-Armenian partner understood that I had been deeply touched, but he himself didn't have that experience or even understand what it was that had elicited that response, and was understandably not "getting" what affected not just me but so many others (all Armenian) he could see in the theater who were also having that same experience.]

If you really want to read the masterpiece and definitive book on the Armenian Genocide, unambiguously the book is "The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History" by French historian Raymond Kevorkian. Reading the book is a mammoth undertaking as it is a huge book. But it's stunning and brilliant, and a lifetime's work. I am in total awe of what Professor Kevorkian achieved with this brilliant book.

I hope this is helpful! If I may ask...what was it that brought you to this subject in the first place? That would be most interesting to know.
 

Shelter

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Hello Shelter,

As a gay Armenian, I'm touched that you are interested in the Armenian Genocide. My grandparents were survivors of the Genocide and lived through experiences that one wouldn't wish on their greatest enemy. My grandmother in particular is the only survivor of her entire family, and literally saw all of her family be killed.

Let me make some recommendations for books and movies.

Taner Akcam's books are certainly important and worth reading, but they are more for the serious reader than someone casually interested in the subject. The best overall book for someone who wants to better understand the subject without necessarily getting into it hardcore (which would be the case with Taner Akcam's books) would be to read "The Burning Tigris" by Peter Balakian. It's intended for the general reader and it's really well written, accessible, and just well done overall.

There are many survivor memoirs and all have their interesting perspectives. The single best survivor memoir that I've read--by far--is "Armenian Golgotha" by Rev. Grigoris Balakian. Father Balakian was the great-uncle of Peter Balakian, and the book was saved from oblivion by Peter Balakian and edited by him (as well as translated by others). Rev. Balakian was one of the 250+ Armenian leaders and intellectuals who were arrested on April 24, 1915 (the date in which the genocide began) and almost all of whom were executed. But he miraculously survived, and his story of survival and escape is almost impossible to imagine because it is so improbable. And as a leader of the community, Father Balakian had a vantage point and access to people to better understand what was happening in real-time. But his book is interesting not just because of his eloquent description of what happened, but because the book is as much a book of life-wisdom and philosophy. Throughout the book, Father Balakian shares his observations on life, on what makes for a meaningful life as compared to one that goes without meaning, on relationships, on love and friendship, etc. If the self-help crowd knew what was in the book, they would be reading it in droves and derive so much positive wisdom from it. Overall the book is incredibly rich and rewarding, while also being painful. I can't recommend it enough.

There is another survivor story that has been very well-received, but it's a little different because it's a fictionalized re-telling of a true story. The book is called "Forgotten Fire" by Adam Bagdasarian, and it's his uncle's story told in first-person. The book is touching and very powerful, and it's a relatively quick read.

The definitive movie on the Armenian Genocide has not yet been made, but one extremely good one is "The Lark Farm" by the Taviani brothers from 2007. It's actually a completely true story, and is deeply moving, deeply sad, and exceptionally well done. It tells one family's story, and the events depicted in the movie actually happened (I had my doubts that it could all be true, but upon investigating the matter, I learned that in fact it was). And anyone who loves world cinema would be familiar with the Taviani brothers, who have made many memorable films and bring their own distinct style to the story. It's an excellent film. Atom Egoyan made a powerful movie that is about the genocide but gets at the subject somewhat indirectly, called "Ararat." But the problem with Ararat is that it's a film for Armenians, and it assumes that the viewer knows the history and the story and a lot of other related things which most viewers will not know, and as a result non-Armenians find this too difficult a film to truly understand let alone appreciate. I wish Egoyan had made a more accessible movie that did not assume that so much was already understood, but as someone who did have that perspective, let me assure you I was in a flood of tears when the film ended. [My non-Armenian partner understood that I had been deeply touched, but he himself didn't have that experience or even understand what it was that had elicited that response, and was understandably not "getting" what affected not just me but so many others (all Armenian) he could see in the theater who were also having that same experience.]

If you really want to read the masterpiece and definitive book on the Armenian Genocide, unambiguously the book is "The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History" by French historian Raymond Kevorkian. Reading the book is a mammoth undertaking as it is a huge book. But it's stunning and brilliant, and a lifetime's work. I am in total awe of what Professor Kevorkian achieved with this brilliant book.

I hope this is helpful! If I may ask...what was it that brought you to this subject in the first place? That would be most interesting to know.

Thank you Blizzard for this so very interesting post. And surely I will try to get the books you have named here. I don't know if I will get them here in Germany - but I'll try. Thank you too for mentioning the film THE LARK FARM - until now I h ave not heard from this film here too. But because it is a film from 2007 (I know it from Imdb) I think I'll find this film in the videothek. I'll try as well. Once more my very very thanks - you have been so very helpful for me. p:pp:pp:pp:p
 
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