The Iron Lady is No More

[gb2000ie]

Well - she hung in there for a long time, but, Margaret Thatcher died today.

The response has been overwhelmingly negative because of her brutal breaking of the unions and destroying of so many lives. She did no good for Northern Ireland, and her Poll Tax was nothing short of an attempt to remove poor people's democratic rights. There's a lot to hate her for in the main-stream, but my partner reminded me of her deep-seated homophobia, and her crusade against gay rights - I think Section 28 is probably the worst embodiment of her war on our rights - http://refhide.com/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

I don't like taking joy in death. It feels wrong, and I try to believe that in her mind, she was trying to do good (but failing), but I'm finding it harder to believe the more I remind myself of her legacy. I honestly thought "ding dong the witch is dead" when I read the news, and then felt disgusted at myself. Her decline into senility as portrayed in the film "The Iron Lady" should be enough to break the stoniest of hearts - but you have to remember that that film utterly ignores the great damage she did, and cherry-picks very very carefully from her life, but I do think it gives a glimpse of her humanity.

I'm no Thatcherite, and never will be, but I won't be joining some of my acquaintances plans to go dance on her grave.

B.

 

[dargelos]

It does feel wrong to take joy from someone's death, yes indeed, but, when there has been an absence of any good news in my life for so long, and when I have been looking forward to this day, and praying for this day, for more than thirty years, please forgive me. Forgive me that when my boyfriend rushed to tell me the good news I about jumped through the roof with happiness.

A list of reasons for despising that monster would be a very long list, right now it's just time to enjoy the party.

 

[tonka]

It wasn't just Thatcher. The next year Reagan was elected, and conservative governments in Germany and Canada.
They were in power as the aids crisis gathered steam. There was fear and panic, and gay men dying horrible deaths.
It was a time for the elites in power to show compassion and leadership. They chose not to do that.

 

[SimplyJakeAndAlex]

It wasn't just Thatcher. The next year Reagan was elected, and conservative governments in Germany and Canada.
They were in power as the aids crisis gathered steam. There was fear and panic, and gay men dying horrible deaths.
It was a time for the elites in power to show compassion and leadership. They chose not to do that.

Yep my Dad felt quite happy yesterday for some reason )...

 

[dargelos]

I believe Thatcher was not homophobic herself, she got on well with gay men away from the cameras, one of her best friends was the alcoholic paedophile Sir Peter Morrison (awarded his knighthood for what? services to young boys?). She was something much worse, benefiting from gay men in private while condeming them in public. Section 28, the anti-gay legislation, was designed as red meat for those tories who were explicitly homophobic and there were plenty of those, still are I'm afraid. Did she care if it increased gay hate crime? She didn't care who suffered as long as she got her own way.

 

[Zimbodood]

She may not have been an Angel but she did a lot of good for Britain as well, it is unfair to judge her solely on certain aspects of her career.

 

[bigsal]

It struck me negatively the "glorification" received by the media and, so to speak, from the "personalities" for a person who has been ruthless with the weak and at the service of the lobbies and the powerful. A Robin Hood in reverse.

 

[gb2000ie]

She may not have been an Angel but she did a lot of good for Britain as well, it is unfair to judge her solely on certain aspects of her career.

Excellent - I've been looking for someone who can give me the other side of the story - please, can you give me a list of the good things we should remember her for to counter-act the bad (in my eyes):
1) The very regressive Poll Tax
2) A dramatic rise in unemployment, social unrest, and social inequality (rich got richer, poor got poorer)
3) Serious failures from privatisation, the poster-child for the failures of privatisation is the railway system - with water companies not far behind.
4) heartless response to the hunger strikers
5) Anti-gay laws

So far my own good-list is pretty short:
1) At least one of the things she privatised did OK - BT
2) she signed the Anglo Irish Agreement (though later called it her worst mistake which under-mines things just a bit)
3) before entering politics, she helped invent the icecream cone (or so a colleague at work insists)

B.

 

[dargelos]

Here is my good-list, also short:
1) Male politicos feel the need to pick a football team to pretend they have always supported, she made no secret of her dislike of football.
2) Section 28 protest rallies were a great place to meet boys. It's a delicious concept that the hated law led to new chances for gay sex.

Her icecream research was about aeration, adulterating the icecream with compressed air so you got less actual product for the same amount of money. Shape of things to come.

 

[gb2000ie]

2) Section 28 protest rallies were a great place to meet boys. It's a delicious concept that the hated law led to new chances for gay sex.

ROFL - that's just fantastic! I love it when the right wing loonies shoot themselves in the foot

Her icecream research was about aeration, adulterating the icecream with compressed air so you got less actual product for the same amount of money. Shape of things to come.

Awe man - you mean I have to reduce my good list to one and a half things - I really am trying to get a balanced view of the woman, but it's bloody hard!

B.

 

[tonka]

I've been reading about the Thatcher response to the aids crisis. Does she deserve some credit?
Here in the states, Reagan/ Bush approached the issue as part of the culture war, and not much else.
Thatcher went after gays with gusto in her own culture battles. But she also gave the National Health Service running room to have a practical, common sense "harm reduction" public health policy.
That's what the bloggers say anyway. In those days, I was focused on what was happening here, so I really don't know.

 

[dargelos]

We were lucky that the National Health Service was held in such a high regard that even Thatcher dare not interfere so it was able to do the right thing without politics getting in the way. The present conserative govt doesn't even have the tiny morality of a Thatcher thus the health service is in peril today.
About her role in Ireland, you'll have to help me out, gb, I never understood what her true motives were.
I admire your aim of trying to remaining objective, for me, and much of the north east of England, seeing first hand the barbaric treatment of the miners, who were the finest bunch of men you could ever meet, has left hatred of Thatcher hard wired, unerasable. I guess the same effect applies to sections of Northern Ireland?

 

[Cerno]

Im confused about her. It's said that she opposed homosexuality and even made anti-gay law in the 1980s. Her anti gay video went viral on the internet.

But another source claimed she supported gays but that was in 1960s.

I'm really confused to read opposite news.

 

[dargelos]

If this will help with your confusion;
She voted for the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967 which was unusual for a right winger, and she didn't mind having gay friends, provided they stayed in the closet.
Section 28, which made it an offence for a teacher to explain that gay was as good as straight, came twenty years later, by which time she had changed for the worse, very much for the worse.
I don't understand what you mean by her anti gay video, she was sacked in 1990, which was before the internet got going.

 

[gb2000ie]

We were lucky that the National Health Service was held in such a high regard that even Thatcher dare not interfere so it was able to do the right thing without politics getting in the way. The present conserative govt doesn't even have the tiny morality of a Thatcher thus the health service is in peril today.
About her role in Ireland, you'll have to help me out, gb, I never understood what her true motives were.
I admire your aim of trying to remaining objective, for me, and much of the north east of England, seeing first hand the barbaric treatment of the miners, who were the finest bunch of men you could ever meet, has left hatred of Thatcher hard wired, unerasable. I guess the same effect applies to sections of Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland is complicated - as John Hume put it (paraphrasing Nils Bhor's description of Quantum physics) - if you think you understand Northern Ireland - you don't.

I'll do my best to describe things as I see them. I have one small advantage in that I have lived in Ireland for most of my life, but I'm not actually Irish, so I wasn't raised to be either Republican or Unionist, and am about as impartial as it's possible to be about Northern Ireland.

From a Republican point of view her response to the 10 hunger strikers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Irish_hunger_strike) who starved themselves to death as a desperate protest to have their status as political prisoners restored is unforgivable. By refusing to accept the blindingly obvious truth she forced those men to martyr themselves for the cause of justice for Republicans/Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Obviously in her mind it didn't matter whether or not the republicans really did have a just cause or not because they had resorted to terrorism so they must be crushed. I'm absolutely against terrorism, but, I am also aware of the undeniable fact that republicans/catholics were being terribly oppressed in the north. There is also the fact that the first shots were fired by the British on bloody sunday to break up a peaceful civil rights protest. So, if you get shot when you try to protest peacefully, is it surprising some turned to terrorism? I don't approve, but I do understand.

For me, the much bigger problem with Thatcher in Ireland is that she made it impossible for there to be a peaceful solution by closing down every single reasonable avenue to achieve it. She ruled out the very things that have since created such great progress in Northern Ireland, power-sharing, cross-border institutions, and more. Her insistence at saying no to everything prevented any meaningful dialogue from even starting as long as she was in number 10. Making peace impossible is her most negative legacy in Ireland in my opinion.

On the other hand, she did sign the Anglo Irish Agreement, which opened important channels of communication between the British and Irish governments, and it was those channels, though only AFTER Thatcher left, that made the progress Northern Ireland has seen since her departure from office possible. Despite preventing all possible progress while she was in office, she did lay down the foundations for the progress that happened after her time. I'd like to give her credit for that, but, unfortunately, she went on to describe the agreement as her biggest regret when she wrote her autobiography.

Ironically, the Unionists in Northern Ireland were so appalled at even the tiny progress made by the signing of the Anglo Irish Agreement that they hung her in effigie as a traitor. With hind-sight it's actually funny that one of the few things the Unionists and Republicans agreed on was that Thatcher was evil. Republicans hated her for murdering the hunger strikers (in their eyes), and preventing any possibility of peace, and Unionists hated for extending diplomatic relationships between the British and Irish governments even the tiniest bit.

I honestly think that on balance she was bad for Northern Ireland, and that her 11 years in power lengthened the blood shed by 11 years.

B.

 

[dargelos]

Thank you for that, you do really know what you are talking about, but then you could keep typing until your fingers are worn away and still not explain everything.
What a quote, if you think you understand Northen Ireland, you don't. Quantum physics is a lark by comparison.

 

[dargelos]

About the privatisation of the phone system, the taxpayer had invested a fortune in technical development just prior to the selloff, the system was on the cusp of a major improvement in efficiency and reliability, so I contend that the performance of British Telecom would have shown the same improvement with or without privatisation.