44% of Americans plan to not vote for Obama

[soman]

I'm waiting to see who the republicans candidates will be, but I AM inclined to vote democratic.

 

[8oclockcoffee]

I am embarrassed to say that I voted for Obama, when I should have done my symbolic Ralph Nader vote like I had been doing for years. Obama is a fraud, and while he is better than Bush, that's not much of an endorsement.

The Electoral College is a joke, and the Party System is an abomination. And with bullshit like the asshats in the "Supreme" Court consistently ruling to give corporations more and more "rights" as "people" for the last 120 years or so, it makes me want to vomit! Has there EVER been an honest politician or judge? It doesn't seem so.

When I read the grievances that the "Founding Fathers" had, I don't know whether to laugh or cry! I get taxed, but I certainly have no more representation in our government than the Colonists had in Parliament. And our taxes are much worse now! I would kill for just a stamp tax to bitch and moan about!

 

[gb2000ie]

American liberal voters have a really tough choice - stand for reform and vote for some third party, knowing that it will probably let another Bush-like-dangerous-maniac in, or voting for the lesser of two evils knowing that you're at least stopping things from being as bad as they could be, but surrendering at least some of your principles. Not at all something I envy.

Is a two party system really much better than a single party system? I'm not at all sure, with the exception of literally a handful senators and congressmen like Barney Frank and Bernie Sanders, who really challenges the status quo? Both parties are right wing parties, so there is no real choice for the voters, just right and incredibly right.

As complicated as the Irish single transferable vote is, it allows small parties to get fair representation in our elected bodies, so it's not just the establishment that wins all the time. We don't just vote for one candidate, we get to rank the candidates in our preferred order, and each constituency returns between 3 and 5 representatives. The first few seats in each constituency tend to go to the more establishment parties, but the last seat or two tend to go to the smaller parties, so they still get elected, and 10% support for a small party doesn't translate to zero seats but to about 10% of the seats.

B.

 

[8oclockcoffee]

I don't really agree with the lesser of two evils theory in politics. Nothing ever seems to change for the better that way. We would be better off to have a total nutjob get in office and REALLY fuck things up, then maybe the public would wake up finally. But what would it take? You would think that G.W. Bush was enough of a corrupt, stupid, nutjob asshole to make people snap out of their stupidity, but apparently he wasn't bad enough.

I think we need to have Roe vs Wade get overturned in order to wake up female voters, and perhaps a bad war with people being drafted into service, and Americans getting killed left and right. That's one of the big differences between the bullshit war in Vietnam and the bullshit war in Iraq. People resisted Vietnam more largely because of the draft. As it stands now, people can tell themselves that the Americans dying and getting maimed volunteered, so it's their own fault.

 

[c750dt]

I'll decide who gets my vote when I see the candidates. I don't think Obama is doing a stellar job but he's not particularly a bad president either. However, I do believe we were screwed in the 2008 election as neither main candidate had proper experience or understanding. I hope the Republicans have managed to sort things out in the past three years since.

As for rising gas and food prices, the president has little control over those. Personally, I think the economy should be able to function independently of the president so he could put more focus onto his most important job which is finishing wars we're in and preventing others from happening.

 

[ritsuka]

George W. Bush was elected through fraud, Ralph Nader's beautiful, inspiring movement was not at fault, unlike what your local right wing democrats want you to believe. A movement for democracy reform should be the "lesser evil," for initiatives such as: proportional representation in congress, full public funding of elections with no advertising allowed, a requirement for the big media outlets to give all candidates equal time consideration and respect, elections and primaries being short and held on a national holiday, every citizen being automatically registered to vote, instant runoff voting, paper ballots only, and local direct democracy and referendums deciding most of the policy. Voting in the system for another professional politician will just leave things as they are now.

The tea party is a creation of Koch Industries; it consists of a minority that would have no power without our money-based political system. The majority of Americans stand with the uprising in Wisconsin, not with corporations and the very wealthy demanding more money for themselves at the expense of everyone else.

The tactics which worked to fight against the Vietnam war will not work today; the massive anti-war movement of the past 8 years has failed because the mainstream media and political system in the US is so corrupt that it no longer seeks input from it's people at all, the military and corporations own the government.

 

[Behrluvr]

George W. Bush was elected through fraud

And Obama wasn't?


tut tut! Please anonymise your external links
Thanks! XMan101 Admin

 

[gb2000ie]

And Obama wasn't?

No he wasn't.

There is a difference between doented cases of people being denied votes and a superme court deciding an election and a bunch of utterly un-substantiated conspiracy nonsense which the available evidence actually points against.

If you want to live in a fantasy world work away, but don't expect the rest of us to share your paranoid delusions.

B.

 

[Behrluvr]

No he wasn't.

There is a difference between doented cases of people being denied votes and a superme court deciding an election and a bunch of utterly un-substantiated conspiracy nonsense which the available evidence actually points against.

If you want to live in a fantasy world work away, but don't expect the rest of us to share your paranoid delusions.

B.

And what does this have to do with the Nairobi newspaper obliquely mentioning that Obama is Kenyan born? Seems to me thou doth protest too much. Why so sensitive?

But I agree with you in that it was uncool for Obama to have his Black Panther thugs standing by the voting booths like that and basically threatening any white people. That should have had the kabash put on it instead of it being allowed.

Don't worry about it though, we conservatives are used to blind hatred , prejudice, condescending comments and hysteria coming from the left, its the nature of the liberal mindset.

 

[gb2000ie]

And what does this have to do with the Nairobi newspaper obliquely mentioning that Obama is Kenyan born? Seems to me thou doth protest too much. Why so sensitive?

But I agree with you in that it was uncool for Obama to have his Black Panther thugs standing by the voting booths like that and basically threatening any white people. That should have had the kabash put on it instead of it being allowed.

Don't worry about it though, we conservatives are used to blind hatred , prejudice, condescending comments and hysteria coming from the left, its the nature of the liberal mindset.

So an oblique mention in some far off news paper is evidence now?

And how on EARTH do you draw the link between Obama and those very few black panthers who didn't actually stop anyone voting? Just cause he's black or what?

Seriously - hear-say and speculation are not evidence, please re-engage the on-switch for your brain!

B.

 

[Behrluvr]

T. The majority of Americans stand with the uprising in Wisconsin, not with corporations and the very wealthy demanding more money for themselves at the expense of everyone else.

The controversy in Wisconsin had no relation whatsoever to big business. It was a dispute between the big municipal and state unions and the state government. The majority of Americans think unions are long past their time and are the root cause of many problems in US schools, government offices. The state of Wisconsin is broke . That means there is no money for union negotiated contract provisions. Governor Walker refuses to jack up taxes any more. The funds come from taxpayers not big corporations. The unions must offer concessions or Wisconsin goes bankrupt, those are the choices.

The majority of Americans most certainly do not side with the unions. Just the opposite.

 

[Behrluvr]

The tea party is a creation of Koch Industries; it consists of a minority that would have no power without our money-based political system.

The Tea Party is a grass roots organization which sprang up spontaneously due to out of control government spending, unending choking deficits, and blatant disregard for the US Constitution. The Koch cover story is just a liberal attempt at creating a boogie man to try to stop the Tea Party juggernaut which is rolling over the Obama agenda.

 

[Behrluvr]

Yes an oblique mention of Obama's Kenyan birth in a Nairobi newspaper is very curious. The date is 2004 long before Obama was a household name. It seems perfectly reasonable for a Nairobi newspaper to report on one of its native born sons becoming a US senator. Why ever would they choose to do this if he was not a Kenyan? Where ever did they get the information in 2004?

This is just one of the very curious bits of evidence out there which remains unexplained.

 

[Behrluvr]

Seriously - hear-say and speculation are not evidence, please re-engage the on-switch for your brain

And on and on with the condescension, intolerance, catty comments , and derisiveness. Seems to be a trademark of the liberal mindset as one doesn 't encounter this behavior with conservative folk. Tell me, is it an impossibility for a liberal to engage in discussion without name calling. Is it that difficult to disagree politely?

 

[gb2000ie]

And on and on with the condescension, intolerance, catty comments , and derisiveness. Seems to be a trademark of the liberal mindset as one doesn 't encounter this behavior with conservative folk. Tell me, is it an impossibility for a liberal to engage in discussion without name calling. Is it that difficult to disagree politely?

You're right, my tolerance of will full ignorance and conspiracy theorising is very low. I'm a fan of facts, evidence, and logic. I like to make important real-world decisions based on the best possible evidence, and I am very wary of jumping to conclusions or just believing something because I like it.

You compare actual factual evidence of real humans being denied votes improperly, and an actual election being decided by the actual supreme court with some typo in a Kenyan paper and say they are the same. That is brain-dead, and I will call anyone who says shit like that out on it.

By all means just tar me with the "all liberals are ass holes brush", but I'm not the one spreading wild speculation with pathetic 'evidence' as un-questionable truth.

As for name calling, what name did I call you? I am calling out your bad logic, and your lack of evidence, I'm not insulting YOU. There is a rather important difference there. You are attacking me, making it personal, I'm attacking your statements and arguments. BTW - attacking the poster rather than the content of his post is a logical fallacy, it's called an Ad hominem. It's seen as the last resort when someone has nothing constructive to add to a debate.

Bottom line - you state as fact that Obama is Kenyan, but have no actual substantive evidence, and yet you expect to be believed. By your standard of evidence there should be no controversy at all about evolution or global warming, there is a million times more evidence for those than for birtherism. A double-standard perhaps?

What ever else I may be, I'm well informed and don't speak unless I'm sure of my facts and the evidence supporting them. I don't take things on faith.

B.

 

[Daedalus]

Guys,

Please continue the discussion but remember agreement is not always possible. As Behrluvr suggests, please 'disagree politely'.

Daedalus
Moderator

 

[gb2000ie]

The last thing I'll say on birtherism is that extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence, and we've seen nothing at all like that.

What have we got? A bunch of proven fake birthcerts put out by anti-Obama activists, a short-form birth cert published, contemporary birth announcements in the papers in Hawaii when the President was born, and a typo in Kenyan paper. The facts really do speak for themselves.

B.

 

[ritsuka]

Actually, yes, the uprising in Wisconsin is about working people standing up to the corporate tea party thugs who want to further concentrate wealth at the top of the companies and deny the vast majority a good quality of life that their union members fought and died for in the past. The Koch brothers also funded Scott Walker's campaign, in addition to their funding and creating the tea party in order to make themselves more wealthy, despite the fact that government programs to help the poor and taxes on the wealthy are both at an all time low. Instead, we have highly expensive, deficit-creating tax cuts and corporate welfare coming from the tea party that the majority of folks have to bear the extreme burden of paying for.

Obama carries out 95+% of the same policies that a republican president would, that Bush did. The fact that some people need to arm themselves with the birther conspiracy theory and other BS just obscures what is actually going on in Washington, and prevents any real change from ever coming from what is in reality a single-party system. Really, maybe you should protest the Afghanistan war instead of focusing on his birth certificate?

 

[Behrluvr]

Looks like Obama has released his BC. He is addressing the issue live. Could it be that Trump's pressure was forcing his hand? This is good stuff!

 

[gb2000ie]

Looks like Obama has released his BC. He is addressing the issue live. Could it be that Trump's pressure was forcing his hand? This is good stuff!

Good stuff?

How do fake controversies like this help a country? Government is not about entertaining the masses, that's what TV is for! Surely America has MUCH worse problems to focus on than this?

Your healthcare system is falling apart, you have massive unemployment, and a deficit going through the roof because of three un-paid-for wars and a raft of un-paid-for tax cuts. Should the election not be about different possible solutions to these massive problems? Surely what matters is policies not entertainment or petty partisan point scoring?

B.