Forbidden Discussions

[Shelter]

Hi guys!

It has happened, really it has happened. Forbidden, forbidden , forbidden.
Well I know even my dad always said that discussions about politics and/or religion could lead to tear down long term friendships. And it is true again - here it happened!

It is a very great pity that we couldn't hold a good atmosphere of constructive debates. It is for sure that in such debates it will be very heated. This opinion, that opinion and perhaps a third opinion - and the word fights will get high. I know that from such debates with our friends. But if it is obvious that there will be no consensus - mostly we'll order a new beer, calm down, try to reduce the blood pressure and are friends again. Why, so I want to ask here, wasn't it possible here on GH?

We never ever have in such debates our opponents personally insulted, degraded or made disdainfully. And if it perhaps happened once or twice we could cordially apologize. Why it wasn't possible here?

I've read in the last days in a special thread here vicious insinuations and assertions. That has made me very sad - really. Because now we have lost a very interesting place of our community here on GH. After this thread prohibition this place will be boring. About what we can talk now? About the weather or the corn on my toe - very interesting, isn't it?!

So once more I'm very unhappy because of some members who couldn't rein themselves. It was always my opinion - if I have realized that I couldn't find a consensus, I'll disembark the thread. And that was OK.

But now everything what could be interesting has been forbidden. Very pity.

Greetings from a sad heart to all who feel the same way! ~X(

 

[dargelos]

Tread gently dear Shelter, I knew you would take this news badly. Promise you're not thinking about quitting, it won't be the same without you. Talk about nice things for a while.
"All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds"

 

[gb2000ie]

I don't have the ability to see into other people's minds, and I don't have a time-machine to go back in time and see posts that were deleted before I ever saw them, so my view on what went down is imperfect. I know I don't have all the facts.

So - with that caveat out of the way, it struck me that those taking part in the debates generally behaved very much like Shelter describes his re-life friends arguing over real beers in the real world. Sometimes heated, but, always honest and heart-felt, and in the end, everyone is still friends.

Basically - I don't see what problem is being solved by these new restrictions.

I'm not convinced the rule was necessary, and I'm not convinced it's a good idea, so I'm not in favour of the new rule. But - I respect the admins and the moderators, and will therefore abide by it. The admins and moderators are all volunteers who donate their time, so they have earned the right to set the rules.

B.

 

[skyward]

My understanding of the new rule is that it relates particularly to new threads, i.e. it is to avoid the situation where a topic is closed down and then the same discussion and problems re-occur in a new thread, with the exact same theme, or with a slightly different theme. The rule was Mark's way of saying that won't be tolerated.

Please remember that a similar tense situation occurred some time back and a member was even banned on that occasion.

It's a lot to cope with from the point of view of rule-abiding members or even newbies who will see the various warnings and shy away entirely from participating.:-/

And of course it's a lot to cope with from the point of view of staff. There are very few of them and they might need to recruit a few more mods to ease things. Mods have there own lives, and also want to enjoy the forum themselves with whatever interests them. One mod who recently, hopefully temporarily, had to step down has parkinson's disease. Mark has his own pressures with his son. Other mods might have health issues of one kind or another. So guys going forward I think we all need to try to be a bit more aware of the pressures that are there and try to help out the mods any way we can.

I have discussed this with one or two other members and the consensus seems to be that the staff are under way too much pressure and might even be feeling a bit demoralized -it's not worth it. We are here to relax and have fun.

I hope I have not said anything to over-step the mark, but I do feel a lot of us genuinely care about this place and I'm sure things will improve and get better in time.

 

[Stonecold]

GH being a Porn forum I think did the right thing, they have enough problems watching the threads of adult material.There are a lot of Gay communities with no porn for discussing politics and other controversial subjects. I will miss the threads that are now banned but I agree with
gb2000ie

I respect the admins and the moderators, and will therefore abide by it. The admins and moderators are all volunteers who donate their time, so they have earned the right to set the rules.

 

[Shelter]

Dear Stonecold - please allow that I'll disagree with you. Until now I've seen GH not ONLY as an Porn-Forum. Such places are hundreds and hundreds in the net. But when I came to GH I was at once enthusiastic about the "General Discussion"-section. And if I'm correct, most of the members participate or read the posts there.
And from this reason I think it is not suitable to reduce GH to a pure "Porn-Forum".

And if you want it to hear it from me as well: I'll deeply respect the work of every moderator here on GH. And I know that they will spend much of their time to conduct everything here in the right way. I must admit, that I couldn't do that, because I've not the time.

But, and I will repeat it here once more, this reaction was overblown! Once more that is my deepest persuasion. It gives me here a "north-korean"-feeling.

And if you would bring down GH to an only "porn-forum" - please why don't you close the whole "general-discussion" part? I think on the porn side there are not so many things which will heating the minds (sorry the porn-flics will do it as well -.

All of us here - so I think - are gays. And we all know how many people react hostile against us. And now I must see here, on a place for only gays, that there will happen the same??? Gays against gays???? Hateful outbursts from gays against gays! And the reaction to it was not a punishment of this hateful outburst - but a punishment of all members here, which are active since a very long time in this threads! I can 't believe it! Honestly - this here was for me one of the most shocking experiences!

And at the end of my post here I want to ask very respectfully all moderators of GH to reconsider this, in my view, wrongful verdict and punishment. Please to all moderators - deliberate yourself once more alltogether. Not today, not tomorrow - but perhaps the day after tomorrow we could hear again from one of you!

That is my deep and refectionate request to you.

 

[slimjim]

Well the issue will always be that the 3 topics under consideration, by their very nature, will always get passionate responses and on occasions these debates will get very heated.

It is always a compromise between allowing full and open free speech and the protection of posters from insults/slurs, or comments taken mistakenly as a slur/insult, in the course of these debates.

As an ex-staff member, and there are many ex-staff members here, I understand the position of the team in bringing in a ban due to the sheer amount of time to deal with the problems that can result. Sadly these sort of debates have previously ended with great contributors to GH leaving the forum which is hugely regrettable.

But I also think its a great shame that we may loose the option to undertake robust discussion of "difficult" subjects.

There was talk on another thread about a "time-out" mechanism to allow things to cool-off. Instead of an out-right ban on certain subjects could we not try something like that - if a thread starts to get heated then maybe a message posted to the extent of :

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 72 FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD - WHEN IT RETURNS KEEP CALM & KEEP POSTING OR THE THREAD WILL BE CLOSED

Does the staff think this may be a workable compromise?.. is it at least worth a try?

 

[mark_63]

Not today, not tomorrow - but perhaps the day after tomorrow we could hear again from one of you!

You can hear from anyone of us whenever you PM us ... but to save time I will respond here in the public forum.

This decision was not made lightly. I see GH as vastly different and much more inviting because we have such a diverse and active discussion section as opposed to the mass of gay porn forums out there in cyberspace.

The problem, from the staff side, was the tidal wave of posts being made that crossed every line of decency with their jeering, ridiculing, baiting, and name calling. Posts that only fueled the next member to go even further in the following post. The staff has enough work to do keeping the spammers out, verifying that the download links are safe, removing the banned studios so that GH does not wink out of existence. The administration was forced to take this, admittedly, drastic step in order to be able to carry on with what should be our job - keeping GH safe for the general membership.

 

[Shelter]

Well the issue will always be that the 3 topics under consideration, by their very nature, will always get passionate responses and on occasions these debates will get very heated.

It is always a compromise between allowing full and open free speech and the protection of posters from insults/slurs, or comments taken mistakenly as a slur/insult, in the course of these debates.

As an ex-staff member, and there are many ex-staff members here, I understand the position of the team in bringing in a ban due to the sheer amount of time to deal with the problems that can result. Sadly these sort of debates have previously ended with great contributors to GH leaving the forum which is hugely regrettable.

But I also think its a great shame that we may loose the option to undertake robust discussion of "difficult" subjects.

There was talk on another thread about a "time-out" mechanism to allow things to cool-off. Instead of an out-right ban on certain subjects could we not try something like that - if a thread starts to get heated then maybe a message posted to the extent of :

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 72 FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD - WHEN IT RETURNS KEEP CALM & KEEP POSTING OR THE THREAD WILL BE CLOSED

Does the staff think this may be a workable compromise?.. is it at least worth a try?

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree: Slimjim you really are a very, very wise man. And this is a really good proposal which I hope no one will reject here.

It is very easy to put this proposal into the Forum-Rules! What speaks against this? .... Once more my very deep thanks to you Slimjim! :thumbs up:

 

[waistingmytime]

I'm not the best writer so I hope people understand what I'm trying to say...I've often thought it would be great to have a small subsection within the general discussion area that contains more controversial topics...Perhaps there could be a permanent stationary warning at the top stating that if you are easily offended or easily insulted please do not enter this section....Kind of an enter at your own risk type of thing.....

 

[mark_63]

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 72 FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD - WHEN IT RETURNS KEEP CALM & KEEP POSTING OR THE THREAD WILL BE CLOSED

It is very easy to put this proposal into the Forum-Rules! What speaks against this?

I too, saw this and was impressed with it. I actually was on the verge of implementing the idea when it was brought to my attention that it does not keep a member from opening another thread - continuing the topic - and starting the fracas all over again.

My understanding of the new rule is that it relates particularly to new threads, i.e. it is to avoid the situation where a topic is closed down and then the same discussion and problems re-occur in a new thread, with the exact same theme, or with a slightly different theme. The rule was Mark's way of saying that won't be tolerated.

Please remember that a similar tense situation occurred some time back and a member was even banned on that occasion.

Although the ban may seem

"north-korean"

it was seen as the only way to stop what had been becoming a quagmire of problematic posts caused by a particular set of world cirstances.

You might notice that this ban has not been permanently added to the forum rules ...

 

[Shelter]

I'm not the best writer so I hope people understand what I'm trying to say...I've often thought it would be great to have a small subsection within the general discussion area that contains more controversial topics...Perhaps there could be a permanent stationary warning at the top stating that if you are easily offended or easily insulted please do not enter this section....Kind of an enter at your own risk type of thing.....

Thank you Waistingmytime for this too very good proposal. It should be too reconsidered. And thank you all who are bothering to save this section in GH. And because I think we are not in North-Korea, I think there will be a good solution which everyone here my be satisfied with. Everything is better than the current situation. :thinking:

 

[slimjim]

I actually was on the verge of implementing the idea when it was brought to my attention that it does not keep a member from opening another thread - continuing the topic - and starting the fracas all over again.

How about this:

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 72 FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD - WHEN IT RETURNS KEEP CALM & KEEP POSTING OR THE THREAD WILL BE CLOSED

NOTE : OPENING A NEW THREAD WITH THE SAME TOPIC DURING THIS PERIOD IS NOT PERMITTED AND THE THREAD WILL BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY

 

[mark_63]

How about this:

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 72 FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD - WHEN IT RETURNS KEEP CALM & KEEP POSTING OR THE THREAD WILL BE CLOSED

NOTE : OPENING A NEW THREAD WITH THE SAME TOPIC DURING THIS PERIOD IS NOT PERMITTED AND THE THREAD WILL BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY

Jim - I will take this under advisement thanks

 

[Shelter]

You might notice that this ban has not been permanently added to the forum rules ...

Thank you soooo much Mark for your small back down. I'll take it as a promise! p

And please reflect to the proposals of Slimjim and/or Waistingmytime. That are really very good proposals.

And sorry that I'm so persistent - it's my nature. So I'm with my BF as well so I'm in my job. I'll always trying to find the right way. You will have it in your hand to help. :blushing::thumbs up:

 

[mark_63]

This decision was not made lightly.

It was, honestly, the most difficult decision I have had to make here in GH.

 

[Shelter]

It was, honestly, the most difficult decision I have had to make here in GH.

I'll believe it, because I think you are an honest and upright man. And so I'll wait for your future decisions in this horrible case! :thumbs up:

 

[dargelos]

I am saying basicaly the same thing as waistingmytime here.
There are two forums that I visit that have an unmoderated section, invisible to the public, for long standing members. One is mostly about sport and local politics, the other is for pro audio. These are "enter at your own risk" areas where there is much swearing and unpleasant attitude. There are limits of course, members police each other when lawbreaking is threatened. Some people feel the need to let off steam. I don't, but for those who do, it's better to let them scream away in their own padded cell than let frustration build up, and spill over into the public areas.

 

[DBOL777]

The idea of closing a thread was done in the past and new ones sometimes disguised by other titles emerge within hours..Gayheaven was not created to be a place of conflict ...Just read the name, it is best that topics causing conflicts be discussed in the multitude of forums designed for such things...Gayheaven simply is not the place...It was designed for friendly discussions and sharing...so best we keep this theme...

Robbie

 

[Stonecold]

dargelos said

I am saying basicaly the same thing as waistingmytime here.
There are two forums that I visit that have an unmoderated section, invisible to the public, for long standing members. One is mostly about sport and local politics, the other is for pro audio. These are "enter at your own risk" areas where there is much swearing and unpleasant attitude. There are limits of course, members police each other when lawbreaking is threatened. Some people feel the need to let off steam. I don't, but for those who do, it's better to let them scream away in their own padded cell than let frustration build up, and spill over into the public areas.

Sounds like a good idea