Italy is still in EU?

[Unsettled88]

After the facts about Berlusconi (italian prime minister) and lots of prostitutes, some of them 17, I think that lots european television news and newspapers talk and write about that, what do u think about Italians?
Are they dumb? are they stupid? or what else?

 

[gb2000ie]

After the facts about Berlusconi (italian prime minister) and lots of prostitutes, some of them 17, I think that lots european television news and newspapers talk and write about that, what do u think about Italians?
Are they dumb? are they stupid? or what else?

So - judging by the title of the post, you think that all of Italy should be booted from the EU because their PM is a git? I think not! The EU is not about upholding Christian morals, it's about social and economic ties between the nations that share this continent, it's not a fickle and petty club!

Besides - the age of consent in Italy is 14, so having sex with a 17 year old there is not a problem in the same way it is in the States.

Are Italians dumb? I'd be loath to judge an entire nation by the actions of their PM. How many Americans would like their intelligence measured based on George W Bush?

Then again, Berlusconi has been a corrupt and slimy git for as long as I can remember, so maybe those Italians who keep voting for him are a tad intellectually challenged. But - maybe he was the least-bad choice? I don't like judging all the people in a nation by their politicians, because I'd come out of that pretty poorly. My native country, Belgium had elections last June and still haven't managed to form a government! And my adopted home, Ireland, is the political laughing stock of the world at the moment, with a prime minister who's been effectively fired from his own party leadership, has had his cabinet of 15 reduced to 7, and still hasn't quite gotten around to resigning. At the same time, the opposition are letting him stay in JUST long enough to pass the finance bill which they don't want to vote for and want to be able to say they're against, but still really want to see go through so they don't have to be the ones doing the nasty cuts. Pure and total insanity, thankfully not all Belgians are as uncompromising as their politicians, and not all Irish people are childish as theirs!

Also - the whole Berlusconi thing has not made to Irish news broadcasts.

B.

 

[Unsettled88]

thanks for ur opinions... =)

 

[ritsuka]

I'm glad that sex scandals don't necessarily ruin the lives/careers of people in Europe as they do in the US. That should be rather irrelevant, though Italy would likely benefit greatly from leaving the EU behind. But Berlusconi has committed much greater crimes against the Italian people whom he does not represent, which deserve just as much outrage. Consider the following article:

While the global and Italian national media focuses on allegations of Berlusconi's latest sexual exploits including reports of hedonistic orgies with teenage prostitutes at his luxurious villas, the much more devastating story of the intentional sinking of ships laden with radioactive and toxic materials into the Mediterranean Sea has quietly developed some new twists and turns in another of Italy's notorious and grand cover-ups. Surely Berlusconi's sexcapades make Bill Clinton's impeachable blow job pale in comparison, but the the tabloid headlines could be replaced by the indignation of the Italian Media at least, with the intentional contamination of the beloved blue waters of the Mediterranean and the dismantling of the Italy's social democracy rather than dedicating the entirety of their attention to prostitutes being paid to entertain one of our most sick and twisted world leaders

We pick up this story in June of 2010 with the revelations that there is indeed what Italian state prosecutor Bruno Giordano called an "ecological bomb" in the valley of the Oliva river that flows down the mountains and past the towns of Aiello Calabro and Amantea on its way to the Tyrrhenian Sea. This is where it is believed that the cargo of the Jolly Rosso was intentionally dumped and buried. State agencies found the valley to be contaminated with thousands of cubic meters of industrial mud laced with very high levels of cobalt, nickel, mercury, lead, and other heavy metals. They found the presence of cesium 137, and they found more contaminated locations than previously anticipated, leading investigators to believe that not only was the cargo of the Jolly Rosso dumped here but that the area was then used as an illegal dumping grounds for years. There are no industries in this area that produce these materials so it is clear that they were produced and shipped in from other places. A formal request has been made to the minister of the environment Stefania Prestigiacomo to declare this zone an environmental disaster area and to begin cleaning it up. More than six months later there has been NO response...

...All indicators point to a collusion of forces in this horrific saga of the Ships of Poison, a collusion between SISMI (the Italian secret service), the Italian government, big business, NATO and organized crime families from the Calabrian based crime syndicate l'ndrangheta. Many are now hoping that the reopening of the Ilaria Alpi/Miran Hrovatin case will finally bring the truth to light, but this is doubtful. The Parliamentary Commission on Italy's Garbage Cycle is being led by a good friend and lawyer of Silvio Belusconi, Gaetano Pecorella. Pecorella began his political career as a radical communist but has moved sharply to the right over the years culminating in what is considered to be the legal mind of the Berlusconi phenomenon. Unless he's being riddled by some kind of catholic guilt for a life of vile hypocrisy, things don't bode well for a truly transparent investigation. Pecorella has also defended elements of the Neapolitan based mafia the Camorra noted for its traffic of garbage and creation of the continuing garbage crisis in Naples and surrounding areas.

Italy is at a very critical juncture and whether Berlusconi survives yet again or not is only part of the problem. The Italian economy is in turmoil, the public eduction system is being dismantled and the health care system is under attack while being wrought with corruption. Civil unrest over the past several months has led nowhere but to heightened tensions with an increasingly militarized police state. The country is divided and while a growing majority is crying out for change a large minority still supports the despicable leadership of the neo-fascists running the country. Only time will tell if the mass movement of the past months will bear the fruits of change toward a sustainable economy that are sorely needed. America's military presence in Italy must be challenged and dismantled for any real change to happen and the center-left has traditionally rubber stamped America's imperial presence on the peninsula.

Full Article: http://anonym.to/http://www.counterpunch.org/leonardi01212011.html

 

[nysander]

One huge problem here in Italy is that Berlusconi controls 6 out of 7 national TV channels (he owns 3 of them, he controls the 3 National channels through his government and majority in the Parliament), so a large fraction of the Italian people has access only to "controlled" news.
But the major problem is, sadly, that the for the "macho" attitude that is ingrained in the mind of most italians, a 73 years old PM that fucks young girls every night (if the reports are true) is to be admired and envied. And nobody seems to care that the problems are others (corruption, organized crime, etc). An almost not-existent opposition, more preoccupied with its internal conflicts than with ousting Berlusconi also does not help...

 

[Unsettled88]

One huge problem here in Italy is that Berlusconi controls 6 out of 7 national TV channels (he owns 3 of them, he controls the 3 National channels through his government and majority in the Parliament), so a large fraction of the Italian people has access only to "controlled" news.
But the major problem is, sadly, that the for the "macho" attitude that is ingrained in the mind of most italians, a 73 years old PM that fucks young girls every night (if the reports are true) is to be admired and envied. And nobody seems to care that the problems are others (corruption, organized crime, etc). An almost not-existent opposition, more preoccupied with its internal conflicts than with ousting Berlusconi also does not help...

Yeah it's true, he has got 6 of 7 national channel, several newspapers and lots and lots fo journalists; but he has got Vatican's agreement, in fact Pope always says that berlusconi is the right premier and many more...
I think Italy, now, hasn't got the cultural level of Europe..

 

[gb2000ie]

in fact Pope always says that berlusconi is the right premier and many more...

Wow - that makes no sense at all - less than no sense even - it's not as it he's ever been a paragon of virtue! I didn't know the Catholic Church had decided to start supporting corruption and adultery - an interesting move!

B.

 

[sebcb]

Italy is a very nice country and the people take this problem not seriousely; thats charming...

 

[Squallmuzza]

Italy is a weird old country. They pass laws that are ignored, flaunted even, by most people. It's a country of a lot of contradictions and oddities that somehow carries on working. Berlusconi is viewed as something all the old boys in the bar slap each other on the back about and say 'hey he's one of the lads eh?'

It's one of those things that seems odd to an outsider, but living there, you just accept it as the norm. That's why I never had a TV license (because the fine was less than the license) and why everyone generally does whatever the hell they want within reason, because the police break all the 'small' laws as well.

 

[tomba]

I didn't know the Catholic Church had decided to start supporting corruption and adultery - an interesting move!
B.

It did it in a big way back in the 1930s with someone called Mussolini. Can't remember how that went....:?

Originally posted by Unsettled88

After the facts about Berlusconi (italian prime minister) and lots of prostitutes, some of them 17, I think that lots european television news and newspapers talk and write about that, what do u think about Italians?
Are they dumb? are they stupid? or what else?

U88...are you asking because you are Italian or just living there? If you are Italian, don't worry. Yours isn't the only country with an idiot as leader nor are you the first or only people to be duped by a politician's ability to make any old shit seem shiny and alluring for a while.

It's the small men who are all turning out to be the biggest clowns. From Sarko to Silvio and on to Putin and Medvedev. It seems Dimitri has bought a Presidential yacht. Wonder how long he'll get to enjoy it? It's very, err, tasteful..if you like bling or Dictator Chic.

http://anonym.to/?http://www.lolyland.net/2011/01/dmitry-medvedev-yacht-more-photos.html

 

[Haplo]

U88...are you asking because you are Italian or just living there? If you are Italian, don't worry. Yours isn't the only country with an idiot as leader nor are you the first or only people to be duped by a politician's ability to make any old shit seem shiny and alluring for a while.

We may not be the only one with an idiot as leader, but it's the what? third time? he wins the elections, and every time there has already been/is/will be some kind of scandal/legal matter involving him... I hope it's just for the lack of an opposition, because otherwise we're living in a country with 50% of idiots....X_X

 

[tomba]

Haplo

From what I recall of Italian politics at University (which isn't a lot), Berlusconi isn't the first who's had accusations thrown at him. Just the most agile in escaping charges. I think I read someone's analysis that since World War 2 (and probably before) Italy had managed to function in spite of its politicians not because of them. In that regard, your country has done incredibly well.

We (the UK) are paying the price of the ruin caused by no more than 2,000-5,000 people - mostly half-witted politicians too eager to follow agendas set for them by the unaccountable. £450bn to £1100bn of debt, depending on whose figures you trust.

So Italians are certainly no more stupid than we are. We fall for much the same bullshit. It's just done in different ways by different people. The British will fall for any old nonsense as long it's trotted out by someone who sounds like they know what they are talking about and who looks the part.

 

[weydowner]

Be aware that most of the new accessions to the EU are as corrupt & interesting as poor old Italy. This country seems to have a disastrous past, both in its alliances with the wrong side or internally. In some ways, it is better to have a President whose name, at least, is known throughout the whole world, than governments which last for only a few weeks or months.
Anyone who knows about the efforts of the CIA from 45 to 89 to make sure that Italy would remain part of the 'West', would be appreciated. Other countries too, ha ha.

 

[serlud]

There are stupid people in every cultures, in every countries. Fortunately, the same is also true about intelligent people. I'm not about to pass a generalistic judgment about a whole community just because some of its members are dumb. I think most people are misinformed, but that's not only true in Italia. Going about their everyday life, most people are not familiar with every aspects of actuality, even in their own countries.

This is the best answer we can give, the common mistake of many is to generalize all people for only a few squalid examples. Fortunately we are not all alike, are happy with your answer nilstreet you're a good person.:heart:

 

[bigarbel]

Italy is a wonderful country. Unfortunately it is spoiled by the people living there

 

[serlud]

Italy is a wonderful country. Unfortunately it is spoiled by the people living there

By mistake I thanked pity that I did not read the last sentence, I hope that is not an insult to us Italians.:thinking:

 

[iryhousen]

a 73 years old PM that fucks young girls every night (if the reports are true) is to be admired and envied.

Frankly, I think it's just hilarious. He'll probably die in the saddle, as they say. We had a big fuss about Clinton here twelve years ago, as a forerunner for putting a bush back in charge. People making charges against someone can have more of an agenda than just what makes the headlines. My private life wouldn't bear any more scrutiny than Berlusconi's, or than any bushes would over Clinton.

 

[gb2000ie]

Frankly, I think it's just hilarious. He'll probably die in the saddle, as they say. We had a big fuss about Clinton here twelve years ago, as a forerunner for putting a bush back in charge. People making charges against someone can have more of an agenda than just what makes the headlines. My private life wouldn't bear any more scrutiny than Berlusconi's, or than any bushes would over Clinton.

I think private lives should only be a matter of public discussion where there are laws being broken, and in cases of rank hypocrisy - I don't remember Clinton ever being a "Holier than Thou" Christian, so I don't think the details of his marriage are any of our business. However - was Monica not one of his staffers? If so - then there is the very real question of sexual harassment to consider though. Did he use his power over her to pressure her into it? If so - then that would be a very very big deal, and would also need to be a matter of public debate.

Things are much clearer in cases like David Vitter's, or John Ensign or .......... these guys all run on the right-wing pro-family ticket, and all parade their families around as a badge of honour. If you're going to run as a family values candidate and then diddle your staffers, and try to pay them off, you need to be exposed as the hypocrite you are!

From outside Italy the impression is that Berlusconi runs as a strong catholic - if that impression is correct, then of course this kind of rank-hypocrisy needs to be exposed! I have to say though - I find the allegations of corruption much more important and worrying than the fact that he apparently sleep around. I also think there's something very very wrong with a political leader owning most of the media in a supposedly free country - that's the most worrying thing of all about Berlusconi IMO.

And I will also agree with your core point that allegations often come from political enemies - so you have to be sceptical, but when the evidence is there, it doesn't matter who 'outed' the behaviour in question.

B.

 

[iryhousen]

Monica not one of his staffers? If so - then there is the very real question of sexual harassment to consider though. Did he use his power over her to pressure her into it?

Monica Kneepads was an unpaid volunteer who was able to get close to WJC because the opposition had shut down the government, forcing those who were paid to work there to stay at home.

 

[gb2000ie]

Monica Kneepads was an unpaid volunteer who was able to get close to WJC because the opposition had shut down the government, forcing those who were paid to work there to stay at home.

Oh - I'd forgotten about the shut-down fiasco!

That doesn't change that Clinton was in a position of power over her, and that that means questions need to be asked. It is not acceptable for people in power to lean on people below for sex. If she seduced him then fair enough, but it is a big deal when someone in authority shoves their dick into someone under their control.

Does that mean I agree with the witch-hunt that followed? - nope, but there is a lot of room between not giving a shit and what the republicans did.

B.