PRAY for our Egyptian brothers....

[garth33]

C'mon guys - cool it! I didn't want this thread to turn into political rants - it was meant as support for the Egyptian people and in particular our GH buddies (present and future) from over there who are probably really freaked out right now.

g33

 

[ritsuka]

diklik, Yes, the conspiracy theory that Al-Jazeera is actually owned by the muslim brotherhood and is an 'islamist' news channel were the basis for the US bombing of it's station in their invasion of Iraq. Al Jazeera English is not easily available on satellite dish networks in the US; there is a blackout. In any case, so-called 'radical islamists" often have their own criticisms of Al-Jazeera, and don't feel it is their voice. Many other sources report about the organization in a way different than websites likes "jihadwatch," but the more you talk, the more it becomes clear that you are deeply rooted in the neocon post-911 construction of the middle east. You also have a very speculative, ahistorical context attached to General Erwin Rommel's excursions into Africa if you think it disproves my point that muslims were NOT responsible for or involved in Hitler's crimes. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Gb2000ie, great points.

 

[diklik]

diklik, Yes, the conspiracy theory that Al-Jazeera is actually owned by the muslim brotherhood...... but the more you talk, the more it becomes clear that you are deeply rooted in the neocon post-911 construction of the middle east........ You also have a very speculative, ahistorical context attached to General Erwin Rommel's excursions into Africa

I don't subscribe to that theory at all. Perhaps you are rooted in the subjectifying of neocon, any pov that is contrary to your own. As for Rommel - just visit a good library and research some of his personal letters and dispatches, as noted by various historians (Weinberg, Brozat and others).

Those who ignore history are condemned to be part of its repetition. Have a wonderful day.

 

[gb2000ie]

C'mon guys - cool it! I didn't want this thread to turn into political rants - it was meant as support for the Egyptian people and in particular our GH buddies (present and future) from over there who are probably really freaked out right now.

g33

I'm sorry that your thread is not going as planned - but I don't think it's right not to challenge Nazi references thrown around like confetti.

Whether we like it or not, US foreign policy is going to be very important in Egypt's future, and Egypt's foreign policy is going to be very important for the entire Middle-east's future - and by proxy, much of the world's.

At the moment, the rallies in Egypt are secular. Lots of different groups of people coming together to demand free and fair elections. The chants from the vast vast vast majority of the crowds are not Islamic, but simply calls for Mubarak to get out. I did her Richard Engle report that he had heard a few Islamist chants, but that the rest of the crowd quickly shouted them down. for now at least, this is purely political.

Now - back to our friends the MB. I spent some time today reading up on them, and looking into diklik's claims. What I found was a bunch of half-truths. They are a evangelical Muslim group. They want to spread Islam around the world. I don't like Evangelicals of any kind, but that doesn't make them terrorists, any more than Catholic missionaries or Evangelical Christians are terrorists! The Bin Laden link is illustrative of how half-truths were thrown around here. In his pre-Al Queda days he was heavily influenced by an MB cleric, from that cleric's writings, he was outside the MB mainstream though. That's not important though. As Bin Laden become more radical, he moved away from the MB, and, later in life, spoke out very strongly against them. The MB has not praised Bin Laden, and Bin Laden has condemned the MB, even if he was once in their fold in his youth.

I couldn't find any sourced evidence of a link with actual Nazis. I did find one alleged link to a Neo-Nazi in the 90s in Germany, but that is not at all what diklik claimed.

As for north Africa, the fact that Romell was thinking of trying to make peace with the local Muslim tribes does not constitute a 'link' or an endorsement of the then secret extermination camps. There are well doented attempts to strike up negotiations between the British and the Nazis, that does NOT mean the the British conservative party are Nazis! The abuse of the word 'link' is horrific. Almost anything can be 'honestly' called a link, and that statement of pseudo-fact can then be roundly abused to tar pretty much anyone on this planet with the Nazi brush.

I find it franky offensive the way some people can trivialise the crimes of the Nazis by throwing that word around with gay abandon. It's sickening.

No one knows how the revolution will go - or who will be in power after it. It's far to early to start declaring the Nazis the winners. That's reactionary, and ill-informed twaddle.

Should anyone be interested in getting a balanced, properly cited, picture of the MB, I suggest the Wikipedia page as a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

Now - I do hope we can all have a nice Nazi-free day.

B.

 

[iSlut]

It is absolutely beautiful to see the people rising up against these right wing dictator

Not picking a fight, but Mubarak can't be classified as a right-winger. He's a secularist and opposes Sharia law. Many of his most vocal opponents are to the right of him, not the left.

 

[gb2000ie]

Not picking a fight, but Mubarak can't be classified as a right-winger. He's a secularist and opposes Sharia law. Many of his most vocal opponents are to the right of him, not the left.

The whole left and right thing just doesn't work to describe people. Any system that puts Mother Teresa and Mubarak into the same categorisation along with Hitler is somewhat flawed

I think the Political compass idea is more meaningful, and that definitely puts Mubarak at the authoritarian end of that axis, and probably quite close to the centre on the left-right axis.

BTW - if you're not familair with the the political compass you should check it out, it's a very interesting way to represent people's politics, a heck of a lot more interesting than just 'left and right' anyway: http://anonym.to/?http://www.politicalcompass.org/

B.

 

[ritsuka]

Not picking a fight, but Mubarak can't be classified as a right-winger. He's a secularist and opposes Sharia law. Many of his most vocal opponents are to the right of him, not the left.

I agree with gb200ie about the political compass. However, Muburak has both authoritarianism and economic policies that leave people in mass poverty, so I don't think he's to the left of, for instance, the labor unions, marxists, and feminists that are a large part of this protest movement, or the young people and students and the millions who are quite simply against his violence and repression. Despite what some people think, the muslim brotherhood was only a late joiner to this movement to oust Mubarak. Being pro secular and against sharia law at the same time as his security forces go out, torture, beat, and extort from civilians doesn't really make him a consistent fellow. Further, there are many opposition leaders that are not in favor of sharia either, people like the former head of the international atomic energy agency, Mohamed ElBaradei. The renowned feminist Nawal El Saadawi is another example. But the idea that muslim religion must be far-right is a western construction.

 

[tullamoreboy1]

g'luck to them!

 

[Tjerk12]

For many many years Europeans colonized the countries in Africa. In a way they destroyed their social future by installing repressive regimes. This week our PM in The Netherlands declared that we should take steps to avoid a same regime in Egypt as in Iran. It seems that we are starting to colonize Africa again, but now mentally.
Let them make their own choices. Let us make efforts to make the influence of the UN so big that human rights will be respected all over the world. That makes the discussion above needless.

 

[slimjim]

From the BBC Website:

11 February 2011 Last updated at 16:33


Egypt crisis: President Hosni Mubarak resigns as leader


Hosni Mubarak has decided to step down as president of Egypt.
In an announcement on state TV, Vice-President Omar Suleiman said Mr Mubarak had handed power to the military.
It came as thousands massed in Cairo and other Egyptian cities for an 18th day of protest to demand Mr Mubarak's resignation.
Protesters responded by cheering, waving flags, embracing and sounding car horns. "The people have brought down the regime," they chanted.
Mr Suleiman said Mr Mubarak had handed power to the high command of the armed forces.
"In the name of God the merciful, the compassionate, citizens, during these very difficult cirstances Egypt is going through, President Hosni Mubarak has decided to step down from the office of president of the republic and has charged the high council of the armed forces to administer the affairs of the country," he said.
"May God help everybody."
Mr Mubarak has already left Cairo and is in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh where he has a residence, officials say.

 

[JamesK]

I just want to express my deepest respect to all these brave people in Egypt on this historical day February, 11th, 2011 for Egypt, the Arabic world and the WHOLE WORLD ! THANK YOU BELOVED PEOPLE OF EGYPT !!!

 

[gb2000ie]

It's so great to see the people of Egypt celebrating together. I had feared that this revolution might become religious in nature, but it really hasn't, and that's so great to see. The people of Egypt did this - not Muslims, not the Christians, but all Egyptians.

It was so great to see the Muslims form a protective cordon around the Christians as they prayed, and the the Christians do the same for the Muslims.

Now the hard work begins - it takes a lot to build a new democratic country - so keep the Egyptians in your thoughts - they have a lot of work left to do!

B.

 

[ritsuka]

This is an amazing development; over 300 members of the pro-democracy movement were murdered by government forces, but they came out in larger numbers, and they've won their first demand. I have faith that they will continue until they win the rest of their demands--constitutional and electoral reform so that they have real change.

 

[garth33]

I just want to express my deepest respect to all these brave people in Egypt on this historical day February, 11th, 2011 for Egypt, the Arabic world and the WHOLE WORLD ! THANK YOU BELOVED PEOPLE OF EGYPT !!!

AGREE!! The people of Egypt have every reason to be very proud! That was amazing to watch unfold and proves Facebook and Twitter can have more noble results than just sharing party pics - wow our world is changing right in front of our eyes.

Peace!
g

 

[lol240]

hi guys
iam egyption
really thnx for all of this
now i feel like we all brothers ^^

 

[slimjim]

Today the BBC is saying that there are reports (as yet unconfirmed) that protests in Libya and Bahrain have been broken up with live ammunition being fired and some deaths resulting.

 

[slimjim]

Will they be successful... or silenced?

 

[sleen9]

Praying might not be the best idea. The Egyptian youth needs our support for a peaceful democratic transition towards more freedom and equality through our governments and our (old and new) media.

 

[drn2001]

Now the hard part begins. Governing in a democratic society takes courage and much effort. Now's the time to help as much as we can.

 

[slimjim]