Pro-Russian Commander Claims They Shot Down Plane Today

[tonka]

Netherlands is a small peaceable country. There is nothing they can say, nothing they can do, except demonstrate the civilised dignity that is in short supply in other countries. Many leaders have taken the opportunity to stand in the spotlight and do their John Wayne act. Using a tragedy to boost your public image is not showing respect for the dead. Shouting macho words at Mr Putin will do what? Make him scared? He isn't scared of words, all they do is make him even less cooperative. Mark Rutte's restraint requires more balls to pull off than the oven-ready outrage that would placate his critics.
To get through Puties thick skin will require diplomacy that exploits his vanity and his self image as a leader of historic greatness. I'm talking about guile not appeasement.

There is nothing they can do? There is nothing the EU can do?

Your citizens have been slaughtered. Their bodies dragged through the fields. Balls? The EU is a great power. But a power without balls.
You like Putin fucking you up the ass? Enjoy your fucking.

 

[W!nston]

I agree.

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will." - Neville Chamberlain

 

[ihno]

No, there is nothing the Netherlands can do.

There is also the need to wait for an examination of the cause, even if there is little doubt about it.

Now the blackbox has finally turned up and was or is given to the Malaysians. Well, I exepect the next thing to be that the Malaysians find out it had been tampered with.

 

[haiducii]

There is nothing they can do? There is nothing the EU can do?

Your citizens have been slaughtered. Their bodies dragged through the fields. Balls? The EU is a great power. But a power without balls.
You like Putin fucking you up the ass? Enjoy your fucking.

In this case EU is a a toothless tiger. You can make declaratory statements and resolutions till you run out of ink, but that will have no effect on countries ran by people like Assad or Putin. They are like the honey badger. And we all know honey badger don't give a shit.

 

[ihno]

So what do you suggest then? What should the Netherland's PM do? What would impress Putin?

 

[haiducii]

So what do you suggest then? What should the Netherland's PM do? What would impress Putin?

The Netherlands could convince the EU to enact sanctions against Russia...but that won't happen because of many (economic) reasons...

TBH, the Netherland's PM should pray that Russia won't shut off the flow of gas into Nethherland...we know that Russia is the Netherlands' second-largest supplier of gas...US can't provide gas and oil in wintertime!

 

[ihno]

151 billion $??? What are the Russians doing in Cyprus?

There are sanctions already. Putin is in advantage of course, he can do whatever pleases him. The EU can't do that, because there are rules. In a democracy you have to follow them if you like it or not.
And before they go to step 3 of the sanctions it's really necessary to wait for the results of the examination of the crash site, done by international experts. I hope that an examination is still possible.

 

[yorkie]

In this case EU is a a toothless tiger. You can make declaratory statements and resolutions till you run out of ink, but that will have no effect on countries ran by people like Assad or Putin. They are like the honey badger. And we all know honey badger don't give a shit.

Only we British and the French have any real armed forces in the EU and we are cutting back.I hope this makes us re-think our miltary cutbacks,I'm afraid the only threat the Russians would take seriously is defeat or the chance of defeat.

 

[dargelos]

Don't worry about flight recorder tampering, there will be nothing to tamper with, just a record of a perfectly normal flight then nothing.
Crash investigators know their job, they've already seen enough to prove it wasn't a bomb or a plane malfunction, and that it was a weapon that detonates adjacently not internaly, like, for example, a Buk missile.
It only takes one shrapnel specimen to source the missile. Attempts to delay the inspection and hide evidence are pointless, the truth will soon be out. The investigators are intelligent, the thugs aren't.

 

[Shelter]

No Dargelos, NO, NO and once more NO - I really have a very different opinion. What do you mean with "they do their John Wayne act"? The only one who is doing "his John Wayne act" is Mr. Putin and his gang of killers in the East-Ukraine. And why should the whole world be quiet??? Remember - the same happened in March 1938 Hitler marched into Austria, it was followed one year later in march 1939 with the occupation of Czechoslovakia. And the whole world was quiet. Think of the "great diplomat" Neville Chamberlain how he happily waved the paper with the signature of Hitler and his words "The peace is safe!" And a short time later Hitler marched into Poland - because the world was silent and hoped to appease him with diplomacy. "Shouting macho words"? He as well as Hitler don't understand another language. My dear remember back in history - when and where tell me has been an insane dictator who was lulled by diplomacy? You say Mark Rutte the Netherland's Premier has more balls because he is quiet. Sure the Netherlands are small and perhaps too a peacefull country but they have a voice - the voice of their government. And these government is quiet again - and NO these government has NO balls! No one is looking back! The whole world only can brawl against Hitler - but no one has learned from this time! And again History ever will repeat! And why should the whole world again recoiling of this criminal chief in the Kremlin and his brutalized mob in the Ukraine.
No Dargelos your opinion of appeasement will never be my opinion. Never again, dear Dargelos, I will be called a naive tag-along as it happened here in Germany to our parents and grand-parents. Never, never, never! You have to open your mouth and you have to name that what will be evil as EVIL and with the word EVIL and not with diplomatic courtesy or shall I say COWARDICE?!
NO Dargelos never I will join your opinion in this case never!!!!!

 

[dargelos]

Dear Shelter. Let us establish the following common ground, Mr P is a dangerous dishonest heartless criminal. I may not hate him in the visceral way you do but I still hate him. And I do agree that he is biggest John Wayne tribute show in politics. Which is why I don't want the rest of the world to be doing the same, trying to out macho Mr P, it can't be done.
I need to make clear that I said quote "guile, not appeasment". To spell that out again I was not recomending appeasement. Guile is entirely differant, it includes making temporary friendship, which could look like appeasement but is only for purposes such finding your enemies weak spot or gaining time to strenghen your defences. Then you can do what Brutus did to Caesar.
Even after nuclear arms reductions Russia (and America) still have the firepower to destroy all human life on this planet. With as low an opinion (not perhaps as low as yours) of Mr Putin as I have, I still don't believe he would ever resort to using nuclear weapons intentionaly.
Note the intent part. We don't yet know, but we will find out, how the Buk launcher got into the hands of those thugs. However it happened, I don't believe anyone in Russia intended the launcher to be used against a civillian target. When a drunk presses a red button it's too late to ask intent or no intent. Whether it be a Buk missile or something a lot more powerful. That's how high the stakes are, that's why I say calm down, take a deep breath. I don't say lets give in to bullies, I know enough about being bullied.

 

[W!nston]

I agree that the real options available to America and the West in general are so limited because global economic stability takes precedence over the downing of MH17 or the civil war in Ukraine. Any military conflagration between the West and Russia would leave a scorched earth that would end civilization as we know it. Future generations, if any could survive, would face a world so unimaginably apocalyptic we can not comprehend it.

Does anyone remember a movie from the 1970s called 'Rollerball'? The future in that movie was a world ran by corporations. There were no national governments only corporations. There were no wars. Just a sport competition known as Rollerball. Sort of like the FIFA World Cup.

That may be the only way civilization will survive.

"However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbours, we cannot in all cirstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in a war simply on her account." - Neville Chamberlain

 

[dargelos]

I hated the Rollerball movie at the time because I took it too seriously, instead of just taking it in as dumb entertainment.
Strangely I think it is Puties very vanity that will keep us safe from Russian nuclear first use. He wants his place in the history books and he understands that after an atomic inferno there will be no books left and no one to read them. That is the kind of weak point I was meaning that the west needs to be ready to exploit.

 

[tonka]

For the moment, there's not much the Netherlands can do. Just like there was no much Ukraine could do when Russia annexed the Crimea.

But the EU is not a little country. It is an economic and technological force. NATO has shrunk a lot, but it's certainly reversible.

Russia wants to have this little dance till things cool down. Then back to business. Then the next flare up, etc. Business people in the west want this too. I understand the motivation. Buy gas, sell warships and technology. Manage the billionaire money. Sell them crumbling mansions (and basketball teams).

Russia can only compete if Europe chooses not to. Too many countries have the "cute and little" notion of themselves. Compete in business and culture, and leave the dirty stuff to others. Military, spying, serious sanctions? DIRTY!
Cute doesn't do dirty. Even Germany plays this game ( from a different history, but the same result).
So who does the dirty? Less and less the old empires. They see it as a fool's game.

Less America. We really like you cuties. (Ireland is the cutest ever, but that's just me).
We do dirty for our own reasons, but in our more narrow interest than before.

We actually have our own cutie right up north. If you can call a huge continental country like Canada cute. But they're really nice, really smart, really cute. They even have porn stars!
And they skip the dirty too. But they have America and oceans on their borders. It works for them. They don't have a bully.

You do. It won't be a monumental effort. The EU is huge and rich. Russia is pretty weak if you look carefully.
But it will take a sustained effort.
Mr P thinks he has your number. This won't stop until you convince him otherwise.

Good luck. America will look with interest, but mostly from the sidelines.

 

[ihno]

"Dirty stuff"? What do you mean with that exactly?

Or is your post from a time-capsule? The time where the USA were the defender of democracy and human rights are long gone. Today the US is a state, that gives a shit about human rights themselves.

So with "dirty stuff" do you mean you built your prison camp Guantanamo for Europe?



Or do you mean the torture like water-boarding is for Europe?



That "dirty stuff" is your own. It all came up because of G.W. Bush, did it not?

People resonsible like G.W. Bush haven't been persecuted. Bush is painting ugly tasteless pictures of Putin today, while Obama is continuing his policy.

Mr. Bush faked war-reasons with his british collegue, then had a war where simple soldiers commited uncountable war-crimes, including holiday pictures with pyramides of prisoners at Abu Grahib in the background. The whole thing turned out to be a political disaster. Is Iraque still existing? Or have the islamic rebels torn it down already?

In Afghanistan it was that the US that had given weapons to the Taliban in the first place when it suited them in the 1970/80s. And then after 10/20 years they had a war to take those weapons back from the Taliban. German soldiers (and soldiers from other cute little countries) still die there because of the late results of US-imperialism. 56 till 2011.

Last week Germany had kicked the highest official of the CIA in Germany out of the country, because NSA and Obama can't keep their snoopy noses out of Merkel's mobile and all the agents they've placed in our services. Something that normally only happened to countries like North-Korea.

I have no problem to call that filthy habit dirty too. But that "dirty work" only serves the US interest, nobody elses.

According to a new poll 56% of the Germans want Germany to become more independent of the US and 69% have lost their trust in the US after the recent scandals.

Today the US is a state, that gives a shit about human rights themselves. So - please - pretending that the US has a "common sense" or "common interest" in mind is insulting for thinking people.

And the US should not be too surprised when their Allies back off a little.

edit: btw. I guess Obama is for hard sanctions mainly because of the Republicans and/or Mrs. Clinton, isn't he?

 

[Shelter]

And why I must always and to all times and again and again hear that we Germans must be deeply ashamed because of the Concentrations Camps? The US (I will not say THE AMERICANS because I deeply hate to blame a whole nation for the crimes of their government and the helping hands of this government!) is an outstanding successor of the Nazi techniques in destroying human beeings.

And Dargelos - I have taken a deep breath and never ever it has been my intention to bully you or somebody else in this forum. But you know "The burnt child dreads the fire" - and as a born German, whose grandfather was a soldier in the II WW and who has heard during his time at school and until today how horrible we Germans have been - never again I will be quiet! And believe me from deep of the bottom of my heart that was not to bully you! -

 

[Shelter]

Please forgive me Dargelos - in this case once more a word to you. My Mom and my boyfriend always remind me to calm down when there is a theme which makes me upset. I'm very, very emotional (sometimes it is good sometimes not - I know1) I really can cry because of a very sadly book of movie or such a crime like that in the Ukraine- and too with rage. But during my whole life I've never ever bullied anyone - so once more if you have had this feeling from my words to you - I really beg your pardon it was not my purpose!!! But I felt I have had another opinion to that what you have written - and it was at once a must for me to answer. You see "very emotional".

Could we be friends again - although we have perhaps different perceptions in the one or the other concern? I would be happy! No war here!!!!

 

[ihno]

And why I must always and to all times and again and again hear that we Germans must be deeply ashamed because of the Concentrations Camps?

This is a myth. Nobody says that. This is something that some germans (not all) always make up themselves, which is a typical german trait btw. Germans like to moan (Deutsche jammern halt gern).

Except for maybe one or two individuals nobody from other countries demands from the Germans to be ashamed today. That's a mere clichee.

The "Third Reich" doesn't matter for young people from Poland, Israel or the Czech Republic. And for the US-Americans: especially US-Americans were the ones that never told Germans to be ashamed.

The US (I will not say THE AMERICANS because I deeply hate to blame a whole nation for the crimes of their government and the helping hands of this government!) is an outstanding successor of the Nazi techniques in destroying human beeings.

I have to disagree to this too. Torture was not a german or Nazi invention but was and is unfortunately a world-wide problem. And the US also never had Vernichtungslager (destruction camps) like the ones around Auschwitz.
Guantamao is worse enough the way it is. There is no need to dramatize it further.

- and as a born German, whose grandfather was a soldier in the II WW and who has heard during his time at school and until today how horrible we Germans have been...

That Nazi-Germany started a war that costed millions of life and that the Nazi government also commited and planned genocides in several cases is a fact. And historical facts have to be taught in school.

But it is not true that teachers say "we" germans. And they also don't teach children to be "ashamed". As a state and as the sucecessor of the German Reich (Rechtsnachfolgerin) there is of course resonsiblity. But that is something different from being ashamed.

 

[dargelos]

Oh dear Shelter, my bad is in writing as if everybody used English in an English way, some have to translate and then the meaning gets confused. I was bullied at school. Not anywhere else. Having learnt from my schooldays it won't happen again, and it hasn't. Thats why I understand bullies (such as VP for example) and are no longer scared of them. If it looked like I was calling you a bully that was an awful mistake, I would never make personal criticism of you or any other member.
Freedom of speech is precious, I hope everyone can be free to what is on his mind without fear of being judged. The meaning of the message we may dislike but never the person saying it.
To be continued...

 

[Shelter]

Thanks Dargelos - you have said that what I couldn't express. And you know my mantra is: SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY. And that's the way I live full of my emotions -!
And Ihno - you know I agree with you in so many points. And I love it to read your posts because they are ever profound and awesome couched but here I'm not with you in one line.
At first I'm surely not ein jammernder Deutscher (a moaning German), second - my schooltime is not so far away and I know what my teachers told us - so that sometimes I would have loved to leave the class-room (and I'm surely not a Nazi-follower or so) third - I've never ever denied historical facts about the crimes of the Third Reich - but I'm not guilty about it and I hate kin liability.

Well and again too much emotions, forgive me. English is not my language so perhaps some things here could be misunderstood. But I've tried and I hope you will underdstand what I've tried to say.

Whow just my boyfriend came in, looked about my shoulders and said "It's like in the Parliament -different parties, different persuasions - but all persons who will love the same - their friends!" So I'll end this with this words -