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Star Trek "Utopia" Doesn't Work Without Slavery

W!nston

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..you cannot integrate people into a union if their ethos is incompatible with yours. ...

This would be called 'Islamophobia' or 'Racist' if it were used in a discussion of current events.

... it is inevitable that groupings of compatible ideologies will form. ...

Birds of a feather ... again, if that were used to defend a desire to restrict immigration it would be considered those same guilt-tags.

Assuming some kind of hate against non-members is nuts. ...

Who said anything about 'hating' Non-Federation members? I never used any term even similar to 'hate'. I said 'Third World' meaning lower standard of living.

Look. I get what you are saying. In a fictional universe like Star Trek you can pretend but in reality it would be very difficult not to have the economic problems of wealthy planets and poor planets. It is the nature of reality.

I'm enjoying your posts B. I hope others will join. :)
 

gb2000ie

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If those of us in favour of helping refugees were advocating for Syria being admitted to the EU, your stretched analogy would fit. We are of course not, so it really doesn't.

Conflating a discussion on membership with a discussion on helping refugees is nonsense.

For a start, I made it very obvious in my post that we KNOW the federation DOES accept refugees.

B.
 

W!nston

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So Third World Planets DO exist in the Federation? Is that what you are saying?

Are there planets in the Federation that are resource poor? How would they ever 'evolve' to be 'enlightened' enough to be welcomed into the Federation? If some civilizations struggle to survive against harsh conditions on their planets how would the Federation handle that? Leave them to suffer or offer advanced help?
 

gb2000ie

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So Third World Planets DO exist in the Federation? Is that what you are saying?

That depends, what do you mean by 'third world planets'?

We certainly see war-torn planets, and we see planets with plagues where the federation rushes in to help. We also see planets with famines where the federation also rush in to help.

There are obviously planets at all stages of development. Do we call those 'third world' and then decide the prime directive is racist?

Are there planets in the Federation that are resource poor? How would they ever 'evolve' to be 'enlightened' enough to be welcomed into the Federation? If some civilizations struggle to survive against harsh conditions on their planets how would the Federation handle that? Leave them to suffer or offer advanced help?

I'm not sure there is such a think as a resource-poor planet. All the riches on our planet come from the cosmos, why would that not be true elsewhere?

Even if we decide that there is such a thing as a planet with fewer resources, why does that mean it will be less enlightened? The only difference I can see would be that their population densities would be limited.

I think you're trying too hard to fit Earth economics onto the universe.

B.
 

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Here's a bit of Trek Wiki that might shed some light on the whole subject....

The Federation has been portrayed as an economic utopia. In the Star Trek: Voyager episode "Dark Frontier", Tom Paris describes it as the "New World Economy", which began in the late 22nd century and eventually made money obsolete, as does Jean-Luc Picard while explaining the timeline to Lily Sloane in Star Trek: First Contact.

The first mention of the Federation not using money came in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Kirk (coming from 2286) says "these people still use money" upon arriving at 20th-century Earth, and says "We don't." when asked whether or not he and his crew use money in the 23rd century. In "The Neutral Zone", Picard tries to explain to cryogenically preserved people from the late 20th century that 24th century economics are quite different and money as they know it is not used or needed in the Federation. In Star Trek: First Contact, he gives a similar speech to Lily.

In other episodes, especially earlier in the in-universe timespan, a monetary unit known as the "credit" is mentioned. At the Federation space station K-7 in the original series episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", set in 2267, Uhura offers to buy a Tribble for 10 credits. In the episode "Errand of Mercy", also set in 2267, Spock estimates that Starfleet has invested over 122,200 credits in his training as a Starfleet officer. In Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, in 2285, while on Earth, McCoy attempts to hire a ship to take him to the Genesis Planet, and is warned it would be expensive and cost many credits; we do not know if McCoy could have afforded this or how much it would cost, since he was taken into custody for breaching the secrecy of the Genesis Project immediately afterwards. And in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Carol Marcus mentions the Federation's decision whether or not to "fund" the Genesis Project itself, though "fund" means something different in this context as credits are not mentioned. In the Deep Space Nine episode "You Are Cordially Invited...", Jake Sisko tells Quark he sold his first book, but when Quark asks him how much was gotten for it, Jake answers, "It's just a figure of speech." This explains moments when characters have made similar comments (in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, for instance, when Scotty mentioned having "bought" a boat).

During the film Star Trek Generations, Captain Kirk states that he sold his house some time in the previous nine years, which from Kirk's perspective would be between 2284 and roughly 2290. By the time of The Next Generation, money was considered abhorrent to many members of Starfleet, although in "Encounter at Farpoint", set in 2364, Beverly Crusher buys a bolt of fabric and requests that it be charged to her account on the Enterprise. Two years later, in 2366, in "The Price", the Federation is willing to pay millions of credits for access to a stable wormhole. Additionally, some officers were shown in "Tapestry" to visit casinos, particularly near starbases, and poker is shown on a number of occasions to be a favorite pastime of Enterprise-D crewmembers, though real money is never said to be part of the game. In the Deep Space Nine episode "Explorers", Benjamin Sisko says that when he first entered Starfleet Academy, he rapidly spent an entire month's allotment of transporter credits (which may not be the same thing as 23rd-century credits) on transporting back and forth to his home in New Orleans. He also arranges for his wife's employer to give her a month's paid vacation (emphasis in episode) in "The Changing Face of Evil" (although his wife works for the Bajorans, a non-Federation race). And in the pilot episode of Star Trek: Voyager, Tom Paris makes a reference to having someone "pay his bar bills".
 

Dendood

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And here's a bit more regarding the Ideals set by the Federation Charter....

The United Federation of Planets, usually referred to as "the Federation", is a fictional interstellar federal republic composed of planetary sovereignties depicted in the fictional Star Trek science fiction franchise. The planetary governments agree to exist semi-autonomously under a single central government based on the Utopian principles of universal liberty, rights, and equality, and to share their knowledge and resources in peaceful cooperation and space exploration.[1]

In those episodes and films, the Federation is described as an interstellar federal polity with, as of the year 2373, more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies spread across some 6,000,000 cubic light years of the Milky Way Galaxy taking the form of a post-capitalist libertarianism[citation needed] and constitutional republic.[citation needed] The social structure within the Federation is classless and operates within a moneyless "New World Economy". The Federation is described as stressing, at least nominally, the values of universal liberty, equality, justice, peace, and cooperation.
 

Dendood

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And my final bit of hogging Gay Heaven's band width......

The first mention of the United Federation of Planets was in the 1967 episode "A Taste of Armageddon", although other vague references such as just "the Federation" or to the "United Earth Space Probe Agency" were used in prior episodes.[citation needed] As part of the anti-war message he wanted the show to convey, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry intended to depict the Federation as if it was like an ideal, optimistic version of the United Nations.[5] In several following episodes of the original series that were intended as allegories to the then-current Cold War tensions, the Federation took on the role resembling NATO while the Klingons represented the Soviet Union.[6]


----It would seem to me, to write or create more narrative for the STU, the core that must be followed is the Canon created for the STU. Although I must confess I feel a bit like I'm taking on the role of Tuvok. From one of my all time favorite Voyager episodes, where Tuvok's holodeck training simulation is mistaken for a Holo-novel. And when Tom Paris tries to write an 'ending' for the novel, Seska's booby trap program kicks into gear...

"Tuvok, did you forget to follow the dictates of poetics?"

According to the Dictates of Poetics by the great Vulcan writer T'uhanne, writing must
flow logically....

It would be illogical for a Utopian organization to allow Slavery as part of its natural order.
 

ihno

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Star Trek is a tv show where you're supposed to pay 6 dollars a months to be told about a future where money doesn't matter any more.
 

gb2000ie

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Star Trek is a tv show where you're supposed to pay 6 dollars a months to be told about a future where money doesn't matter any more.

LOL - or pirate it because you live outside the US and they keep forgetting you exist.
 

ihno

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LOL - or pirate it because you live outside the US and they keep forgetting you exist.

Meh, I'm not expecting much from that series. I distance myself from JJTrek, the later TNG movies and Star Trek Enterprise. To say it with the real Khan - I don't like my intelligence being underestimated by lazy producers. And seeing who will be the producer of the new show all I hope is that it will be at least entertaining to read the discussions about it.
 

gb2000ie

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Meh, I'm not expecting much from that series. I distance myself from JJTrek, the later TNG movies and Star Trek Enterprise. To say it with the real Khan - I don't like my intelligence being underestimated by lazy producers. And seeing who will be the producer of the new show all I hope is that it will be at least entertaining to read the discussions about it.

I agree with you there - Star Trek has lost it's way as Gene's influences become dimmer and dimmer memories.

B.
 

ritsuka

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There is nothing utopian about star trek, it's the military occupation of space, where stupid, violent, hierarchy-driven aliens go to war over natural resources and territory all the time, where they're using toxic fuel to power their crap missions and eating genetically modified foods spewed out by 3d printers. It's a perfect reflection of American militarist-driven culture.
 

gb2000ie

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There is nothing utopian about star trek, it's the military occupation of space, where stupid, violent, hierarchy-driven aliens go to war over natural resources and territory all the time, where they're using toxic fuel to power their crap missions and eating genetically modified foods spewed out by 3d printers. It's a perfect reflection of American militarist-driven culture.

You really are a glass 1-tenth empty kinda guy aren't you.

Star Fleet may be organised in a militaristic way, but it's primary mission is exploration, it's secondary mission is defence, and it does not have an offensive mission. That's not at all like the US military, not even a little.

B.
 

ihno

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conmtrek.jpg


My suggestion for the new Star Trek show! Have a nice weekend.
 

warp9

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I'm looking forward to this new series. Till now I like them all. So let's wait and see. But that doesn't mean, that I wouldn't kick JJA's ass ... for destroying Vulcan and killing Spock's mother. (But the characters are great in the new movies, especially Bones !)
 

Dendood

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I'd afford Ritsuka some slack. In some ways he is correct. All narrative reflects in some way on the culture from which it evolves. And it is established within the 'cannon' of official Trek episodes that Warp drive has a negative effect on the environment by destroying sub space. In addition the process of converting dilithium produces radioactive waste. Where I find Ritsuka off point is the false equivalence of "Star Trek" in relation to the "Federation Charter." One is a set of principles, principles by nature being a Utopian ideal. The Universe of the Trek franchise is not an ideal. If it were, that would make for very boring stories.

It is refreshing how perfect in pitch the JJ Abrams characters are to the idea of the original cast. I almost like all the new iterations of the characters more than the original cast. That's a monumental bar to have reached. Where NewTrek falls short -so far- is their failing in taking these characters out into the 'great unknown.' Instead they settle for regurgitated old story lines from the sixties. A safe hedge for investment capital but cowardly and lazy from a creative point of view. They need to hire Sci-fi writers to provide new blood, new concepts. Then let the head writers work from there.

They also need to hire someone from Titan, or Ragging, anyone who can butch things up a bit. There's a softness to male imagery in the Trek Universe that has held from the earliest days to the present. I realize a world with sonic showers isn't likely to produce sweaty, hairy men... but really... the place could use a touch of Kink. At the least a few Otters.

Guess that's what the holo-decks are for.

At least, that's what I'd be using the holo-decks for.

"Arrooot. Arrrooot."
'RED ALERT!"
"Clean up crew to Deck 5. Holo-deck 3. Too many stray proteins..."
 
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