The Greek "tragedy"

[Shelter]

Frenchgerman I'll understand your frustration that all your heroes from yesterday now speaking the way of the truth. And suddenly they are "incompetent liars" and "no more socialists". It is really very hard if you will loose your heroes - I'll understand. But they have realized that they have been wrong in the past.

And you will believe honestly that it is a reason why Germany is the biggest economy in Europa it has to be self-evident that they have to assume the largest part in this crime against all German and European tax-payers? How much do you pay for your jobless neighbour? How many fugitives you have given a place in your house? - All hollow words!

It is always very easy to decide over money which I'm not owning. And what will be the reason that I have to pay more taxes because of these cheaters in Athens?

Mr. Steinbrück has spoken an unloved truth!

 

[Shelter]

but please let's stop the discussion about you or me here, because it's really not important nor does it help the discussion here !

So true - and I think as well the the fugitives, the AIDS-patients or the Hartz-4 people are not the topic here.

And whatever we do or not do - neither you nor I or wherever here will be able to safe the world. And all the Good Men here may act as if they are Robin Hood - they aren't. All of us are in their ways helpless - or we will make a revolution! And then? Do you think something would be better? The new rulers perhaps will kill the old rulers - and what will change?

 

[Shelter]

nothing ... it never does !

Yes that it is - nothing will change. It's enough to drive one to despair! ~X(

 

[gb2000ie]

The former German Minister for Finance Mr. Steinbrück (SPD = Social Democrats) called this new bail-out package for Greece "a monstrous delayed filing of insolvency". In the economy you are calling that a crime!

And the new bail-out package for Greece: two weeks ago there was a talk in Brussels of 29 Billion Euros, a week later of 50 Billion Euros, last Monday of 86 Billion Euros and in the meantime there is a rumor of 100 Billion Euros until 2018!!!!!!!

And what means that for the German tax-payer (because Germany shoulderd again the biggest sum!)? The President of the Center for European Economic Research Mr. Clement Fuest did not bargain of the return of the money and Germany will be burdened over three years with 66 Billion Euros. That means that in Germany the taxes will get up again. So we are working for the Greeks and will be abused by them brazenly.

The problem with all the current plans is they are not fiscally sound.

The reason Greece keeps needing more money, is that the current policies are shrinking their economy faster than they can pay off their debts. The more the Greeks do the same, the worse their situation will become.

The current plan is more and more of the same. The outcome is inevitable, despite doing 5x more austerity than Ireland (and trust me, that was NOT nice), they Greeks cannot cut their way out of this. Not because they are Greek, or because they are Greece, but because no country could in their situation - the maths does not add up!

This is not some lefty loonacy BTW - this is what the IMF think - they just released a report which said the same as Krugman et al have been saying for ages - the ONLY way to fix this problem is with debt relief, NOT with more loans and more austerity.

Remember - so far, the money for Greece has NOT been a gift, it has been LOANS, and profit-making interest for the lenders! Germany is trying to make a profit off of Greece - which makes your 'hand that feeds' comment from yesterday even more wrong!

The reason the Greeks need more money is to pay INTEREST on the for-profit loans many in this thread keep referring to as gifts. If they really were gifts, Greece would be just fine!

If the Germans knew their own history they would recognise the reality of the Greek situation - when cutting makes your debt grow by more than you cut, you CANNOT cut your way you. That is why Germany was FORGIVEN HALF OF IT'S DEBT in 1953.

Like I say - I am still waiting for anyone to offer the Greeks an economically viable plan. If the Germans continue to shoot down everything viable, they will force Greece to REALLY declare bankruptcy, and DEFAULT. That will turn ALL of the loans into gifts, and the lenders will not just lose some of their money, but all of it!

 

[gb2000ie]

Just to throw some more substance into the mix of this discussion.

Former US Fed Chairman Ben Bernake (hardly a lefty loony), says European policy, especially German policy, is responsible for the sorry state of the entire European economy, and, for Greek problems reaching crisis point: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/07/17-greece-and-europe

Obviously Bernake is not some kind of oracle who is always right. But, given his experience and expertise, his opinions, and the data he presents to support them, do definitely deserve serious consideration.

The German position is becoming ever more isolated, and ever less supported by observable reality.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Just came across an interesting related development on Belgian news.

The former Belgian Prime Minister, Guy Verhofstadt, said that we either have to move towards a tighter union, or abandon the Euro, because the way it is now it's not working, and harming many economies.

The Belgians have always been 'good Europeans', so hearing someone with Verhofstadt's political clout say something like that is surprising, but positive. Maybe some of the European elite are slowly getting the message that the Euro is very borken indeed.

Link (in Flemish/Dutch): http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20150719_01782834

B.

 

[MDRC]

very sad for what happen

 

[Shelter]

Hello Frenchgerman - sorry that my answer to your special post comes so late. But please forgive me it was a very sunny weekend, and I liked it more outdoor than in front of my PC as well I've had so much to do in my office.

So at first I must apologize myself to all readers here for writing a WRONG amount in my post. I have written Germany has to pay in the next three years 66 Billion Euros to Greece. That was indeed wrong because I have misdunderstood the text. It will be "only" 22 Billion Euros and I have interpreted this sum for every year until 2018. It was my fault - sorry.

In the meantime there is spoken from a "coup d'etat" starting from Germany to overthrow the Greek Government. Important at this again the "bad German" (you know Hitler, 2nd World War, Holocaust and so on and so on and now again poor Greece below the German Nazi boots) But in so doing something important will be forgotten (on purpose?) - the decision comes from all 19 Government Chiefs of the Eurozone - and to call their common decision a "coup d'etat" is simply unrealistic and it will serve only for propaganda purposes.

What do you say for the behaviour of England (I've asked this before - and sure there3 was no answer! Why?) Greatbritain has in a very selfish way denied their support for Greece. I have at no post here heard an outcry! Germany grumbles - but pays - and will be denigrated.

And a little "funny" episode from the good Syriza Socialists. As I can read in the papers here the mom of the Vice-Minister of Finances has one day before the Banks in Greece closed their counters ordered from her bank her total savings from 200.000,-- Euros. They should bring her the money to her house. When the Director of the Bank hesitated this good lady thretened with her daughter the Vice-Minister and she got her total amount! And the daughter "Vice-Minister" is totally surprised that someone will believe she has warned her mother. But NOOOOOOOO! It was only coincidence, perhaps she has had a major bill to pay on that day! Sure so it will be!

 

[Shelter]

shelter, as for your little 'funny episode ... it is not much funnier than Schröder imposing Harz I-IV on the German people (and especially the most weak) and than quiting politics to be the 'salesman' for Putin ... and earning millions ...

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:

 

[skyward]

Does anyone here really believe it is even possible for Greece to repay its mounting debts? :?

Would be interesting to hear a clear, precise argument to the effect that they can. Anyone?

 

[gb2000ie]

Does anyone here really believe it is even possible for Greece to repay its mounting debts? :?

Would be interesting to hear a clear, precise argument to the effect that they can. Anyone?

The maths is crystal-clear - it is not a matter of IF Greece gets debt forgiveness (or just defaults), but when.

All Europe does is kick the can down the road with hopeless half-measures that mathematically can't work. That's how we got to here, and that's what we seem determined to keep doing over and over again. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Well, by that definition, the EU elite's approach to Greece is clearly nuts!

B.

 

[skyward]

French President Hollande: Greece needs debt relief

French President Francois Hollande on Friday backed a Greek request to start negotiations with bailout lenders by the end of the year for better debt repayment terms...

Greece's economy is forecast to weaken after briefly emerging from a six-year downturn, pushing its projected national debt to above 190 percent of annual GDP in 2016...

The major new round of austerity measures has angered unions that have called a general strike on Nov. 12. Ongoing talks with bailout lenders have failed to end disagreement on how to tackle a growing number of bad loans threatening the country's banking system.

On Friday, Tsipras promised to honor bailout commitments "to the letter." But he claimed "extreme neoliberal" supporters in Europe -- a thinly veiled reference to fiscal hawks in the German finance ministry -- were trying to undermine the deal.

Anon URL

Greece sure has a lot of problems & pressures piling up. In addition, over the last 6 days alone over 50,000 refugees have poured into the country. The scale really is staggering...