threat by IS or ISIS

[Shelter]

My question is what to you acheive by using torture?.
The enemy are not detered by the possibility of torture, they think god will keep them safe.
They may be in for an unpleasant disappointment but by then it's too late, you've created a martyr.
The martyr is a powerful marketing tool for the extremist brand.

Dargelos I don't agree with you - but nevertheless you are totally right. These people have another religious background than Europeans or Americans or better than non-Muslims. They are fanatic to the depths of one's being! I could torture them (I don't know if I could do it really?!:blushing but I know you are right nothing would change. And if one of them will be killed 1000 others will step up behind him. But tell me W H A T do we have for a possibility to stop this insanity?

 

[bigsal]

So raze all the ground with the atomic bombs, do scorched earth of the Middle East. And then? We move to the east and continue to throw bombs. After, touch at the africa and so on against those who do not think like us.

I feel do delirious speeches, but no one goes to the root of the problem, perhaps because they do not know how to argue or perhaps because it is more Taliban of the Taliban.

Here religion has nothing to do. If so, these killers would have headed to Baghdad, and instead have focused straight north, and I mean where are the oil wells and the water, and certainly not to pray.

Support the practice of torture is chilling, especially if to say this are gay people.
Is how to approve all those who have oppressed us, ghettoized, raped and murdered.

Congratulations for consistency.

 

[luvmuslmen]

Topdog,

They don't give a rat's ass about being a pariah or having a seat at the table. They are rabid dogs, but please excuse my disparaging remarks to rabid dogs. At least they have a legitimate excuse for being the way they are. IS is not Muslim, they are just mass murderers, who enjoy killing anyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY what they believe. They are evil incarnate.

 

[gb2000ie]

Water boarding is amateurish, I say get medieval on their asses. Fuck the Geneva convention, break out the pear of anguish, the Judas chair, and please remember when hooking a car battery up to the bastards testicles, red is positive, black is negative and make sure the little fuckers balls are wet...

Waterboarding is indeed amateurish, but for exactly the opposite reason you claim. It shows you have lost all touch with logic and reason, and are firing on pure adrenaline. This kind of non-thinking is what gets the world into just about every mess the world gets into.

A child lashes out, and adult can conquer their emotions and act rationally.

It is KNOWN that all information extracted under torture is suspect to the point of being useless. The science is on this.

You can't fight fire with fire, that just makes everything worse. Sure, someone will eventually be the last man standing, but there are no winners, only losers, it's just a matter of who loses least.

Basically, you have taken the bait, and you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

ISIS WANT you to get medieval on their ass. That gains them allies, loses you allies, and makes you come over and fight them on their turf where they have a significant home-field advantage.

If getting medieval actually worked, why, exactly, is Afghanistan still a complete cluster-fuck of a mess? Two world powers went medieval on their ass in the last few decades, and both lost - including the US. Afghanistan is the longest war in US history, and it is a disaster. Nothing has been achieved, and trillions have been pissed down the toilet. What, exactly, have the US learned since they were last in Iraq that would allow them to magically win by doing the same shit again?

What is it they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

It saddens me that 100 years after the carnage of WW1 we seem to have learned fuck all.

 

[W!nston]

The West has become soft and the rest of the world knows it.

We tout ourselves as being more enlightened. We pat ourselves on the back for being technologically advanced. We showcase our wealth of military might. We think we can ride the crest of this wave forever.

There is no peace to be had. We should stop deluding ourselves. Humans are the earth's apex predator and that comes with a price. War against our fellow man. We have not yet and probably never will evolve beyond it.

Once we get past nation against nation to the next level of corporation against corporation our aggression will still need an outlet. Once we move further into the solar system and then the galaxy we will invade and conquer other worlds. We will be the monsters in War of the Worlds or Independence Day.

Christian against Muslim. Muslim against Jew. Religion is a disease without a cure. Get used to it.

East against West will end one day when Apple against Microsoft against Sony against, against, against... dominates the battlefields of business.

We are not enlightened. We are soft and soft creatures become prey. While ISIS and Putin and China lay waiting in the reeds salivating over their next meal we keep patting ourselves on the back and clucking like chickens. The wolves are at the door.

 

[luxferre]

hi, i'm form Indonesia, allow me to give some point of view, first we (indonesia moeslem) generally against ISIS, the goverment announce that ISIS activity is terrorism.

Islamic Organization release some 'history' about ISIS that in the beginning that people founder on ISIS is made by US to remove AL-Qaeda network from this world, they tell at most mosque in Indonesia, now after Al-Qaeda loosing his 'power', ISIS begin his rebellion and create their own community.

so we still believe that somehow it is kind of act, we don't react as big as europe or US citizen , because we (indonesian moeslem generally) still angry to US become silence as children genocide still going at Gaza, our country has a few shelter there, we believe it is issue divertion, you know to make people stop looking at Gaza tragedy.

US has conquer Saudi Arabia(from the book Inside the Kingdom), Kuwait, Iraq, if they want with their technology, intel network, and unlimited weapon technology, we believe US has the ablitiy to eliminated ISIS.

but hey is just opinion from the data i have and heard,

i have my battle myself, getting that damn ARV without shouting by hospital administration officer or waiting 5-6 hours every month sitting in the clinic floor waiting to be called.

 

[Shelter]

Everyone says what whe cannot do or what we not can dare to do ....... but has anyone a good suggestion WHAT to do? In the meantime I have the impression all of us we are sitting like the rabbit in front of the snake! And suddenly, very, very suddenly the snake will snatch and everything is over for the rabbit (... for all of us rabbits!)

 

[Shelter]

i have my battle myself, getting that damn ARV without shouting by hospital administration officer or waiting 5-6 hours every month sitting in the clinic floor waiting to be called.

Hi Luxferre let me take you in my arms, I'll hug you again and again and I want to wish you from the bottom of my heart all the very best and a long life. :thumbs up:

 

[bigsal]

Everyone says what whe cannot do or what we not can dare to do ....... but has anyone a good suggestion WHAT to do? In the meantime I have the impression all of us we are sitting like the rabbit in front of the snake! And suddenly, very, very suddenly the snake will snatch and everything is over for the rabbit (... for all of us rabbits!)

One solution we would be simple and painless but utopian, stop selling them weapons.

In the Middle East there are no factories technologically advanced weapons.

 

[dargelos]

What can you do? You can avoid letting IS divide the world into pro- muslim and anti muslim. Everbody who falls into hating all muslims because of the actions of a violent faction is doing exactly what IS want them do. Read what gb2000 says again. These terrorists want all christians to start hating all muslims. That makes it easier to attract recruits and funding.
If I hate what the Israeli military did to Gaza that has everything to do with the unnecessary civilian casualties and nothing to do with the jewish religion.
Should I hate the entire catholic faith because of the crimes of the IRA?
Perhaps I should hate myself because a tiny minority of homosexual men have raped young boys.

 

[james1981]

Everyone says what whe cannot do or what we not can dare to do ....... but has anyone a good suggestion WHAT to do? In the meantime I have the impression all of us we are sitting like the rabbit in front of the snake! And suddenly, very, very suddenly the snake will snatch and everything is over for the rabbit (... for all of us rabbits!)

In an earlier post, I suggested that one option is to support a well functioning, inclusive government in Iraq. This will not get rid of the ISIS threat quickly, but neither will military action. On the plus side, it may even earn some goodwill with citizens in the region. Think about it, if you're an average citizen, are you more likely to look favourably on a foreign power that sends troops to your country, causing further bloodshed and destabilization (yes, I'm aware of the terrible acts ISIS commits and the intent of military intervention is to stop this) or a foreign power that is working to support an effective, inclusive government that represents the people?

In the future, perhaps the West, and America in particular, should consider not covertly and overtly fomenting regime change in governments deemed to be undesirable (i.e. against US interests). The track record on the effectiveness of this approach has been pretty abysmal. Almost makes one wonder why the heck it's still given serious consideration.

 

[bigsal]

In an earlier post, I suggested that one option is to support a well functioning, inclusive government in Iraq. This will not get rid of the ISIS threat quickly, but neither will military action. On the plus side, it may even earn some goodwill with citizens in the region. Think about it, if you're an average citizen, are you more likely to look favourably on a foreign power that sends troops to your country, causing further bloodshed and destabilization (yes, I'm aware of the terrible acts ISIS commits and the intent of military intervention is to stop this) or a foreign power that is working to support an effective, inclusive government that represents the people?

In the future, perhaps the West, and America in particular, should consider not covertly and overtly fomenting regime change in governments deemed to be undesirable (i.e. against US interests). The track record on the effectiveness of this approach has been pretty abysmal. Almost makes one wonder why the heck it's still given serious consideration.

A proposal for a common sense, but utopian.
Do you really think that American politicians are willing to lose also only a small part of "sovereignty"?
Remember that the more funding for US politicians come from powerful lobbies of war industry and from that of oil.
Do not forget also how they were spied the big "friendly states" of the Europe (remeber NSA).
I see that the problem ISIS has already did forget many things.
In Italy there is a proverb that says: "From friends look at me God, who by the enemies I look I"

 

[bigsal]

What can you do? You can avoid letting IS divide the world into pro- muslim and anti muslim. Everbody who falls into hating all muslims because of the actions of a violent faction is doing exactly what IS want them do. Read what gb2000 says again. These terrorists want all christians to start hating all muslims. That makes it easier to attract recruits and funding.
If I hate what the Israeli military did to Gaza that has everything to do with the unnecessary civilian casualties and nothing to do with the jewish religion.
Should I hate the entire catholic faith because of the crimes of the IRA?
Perhaps I should hate myself because a tiny minority of homosexual men have raped young boys.

Your thoughts on the subject are well balanced and full of common sense.

Many people here forget that if torture it would be a widespread practice, many of us gay would probably be already dead or in prison, or in well-closed in the '"closet", and the main perpetrators would be the "good" Christians. Just read back the history of the last 2,000 years.

 

[james1981]

A proposal for a common sense, but utopian.
Do you really think that American politicians are willing to lose also only a small part of "sovereignty"?
Remember that the more funding for US politicians come from powerful lobbies of war industry and from that of oil.
Do not forget also how they were spied the big "friendly states" of the Europe (remeber NSA).
I see that the problem ISIS has already did forget many things.
In Italy there is a proverb that says: "From friends look at me God, who by the enemies I look I"

Oh I very well know that what I propose is highly unlikely. Still, I feel that we need to at least discuss other reasonable options beyond the military and covert ones. If we take discussing them off the table, then guaranteed it will always be the military and covert ideas implemented.

 

[Shelter]

Jazzeven a very prudent post! For the most part I'll agree with you and I think all the others here on this thread too.

But how do you think what to do? I believe that it is redundant now always and always again to point a finger at the USA. We shut the stable door after the horse is escaped! Now these wild horde is on its way and until today no one is there to stop them. Do you really think you could negotiate with them? The families of the 3 beheaded victims have tried to negotiate and they have not even got an answer. Or an answer they don't want to get.

These evil products disgorged directly from hell wants only one thing: everything to destroy what stands in their path. So what to do now? Only to speak a prayer and hope they will not catch me?

 

[littlebob]

I don't know what the answer is. But it is a very scary situation.

 

[Shelter]

I don't know what the answer is. But it is a very scary situation.

Hi Littlebob - if you could, you would be the man of the year. But I really agree with you that it is now a VERY scary situation and perhaps this situation has got out of control in the meantime. Horrible - isn't it?!

 

[brmstn69]

If you think it's scary now, just wait. Because while we're all debating diplomacy verses force, ISIL's forces grow stronger and soon they will gain access to all those chemical weapons Syria supposedly has...

 

[Shelter]

If you think it's scary now, just wait. Because while we're all debating diplomacy verses force, ISIL's forces grow stronger and soon they will gain access to all those chemical weapons Syria supposedly has...

I hope so very much that you will be wrong, but deep inside of me I know you are right and that is a cruel thing to know.
Why our Democracies are so weak or so splitted over to react?

 

[gb2000ie]

If you think it's scary now, just wait. Because while we're all debating diplomacy verses force, ISIL's forces grow stronger and soon they will gain access to all those chemical weapons Syria supposedly has...

I don't think we are debating diplomacy OVER force. What I have argued for is the importance of diplomacy to ensure that the force applied has the right effect. What's important is using diplomacy to build a broad coalition that will then FIGHT ISIS.

The choice is force first and only, or diplomacy to enable more effective use of force.

B.