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threat by IS or ISIS

bigsal

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If you think it's scary now, just wait. Because while we're all debating diplomacy verses force, ISIL's forces grow stronger and soon they will gain access to all those chemical weapons Syria supposedly has...

If these dangerous barbarians had not had the support of the USA, the Syrian government would have already got rid of them from much time. But the "bad enemy" of the West and of the rich Arab Islamic countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.) at that time was Assad.


Now they are closing the barn door, but the horse has already bolted.
 
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bigsal

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I hope so very much that you will be wrong, but deep inside of me I know you are right and that is a cruel thing to know.
Why our Democracies are so weak or so splitted over to react?

Our democracies are not weak, they react only where there are economic interests.

When in Gaza 2,000 people died in a few days, including more than three hundred children, where were the Western democracies?
 
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garth33

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I don't want to argue politics because i always have a naive hope that people around the world can just get along and live together. I know it's a stupid ideal and totally unrealistic but that is what's in my heart. That being said...

ISIS or ISIL or whatever needs to be stomped out like ants that have invaded your home - in this case, for the good peaceful citizens of every country - your "home" is the planet earth. These ultra radicals aren't based on any religion or belief in god (however you define it) They're ruthless insane outlaws who use "religion" as a cover to do whatever they want...what makes me mad is the US decides they need to "act" but also decide they need to form a "coalition" - meanwhile these cockroaches have time to scatter like a light has been flipped on and just watch them disappear into civilian populations so they can't be bombed without civilian damage and worldwide criticism. (SEE: Hamas flying rockets into Israel and the response - who lost? the civilians - Hamas was to blame for that because Israel HAD to respond.)

My main point is...if the "good guys" are going to go after the "bad guys" - don't wait. don't hesitate. Who gives a sh*t what Syria thinks....their country is a mess. If we have targets - LEVEL THEM! Don't show me grainy video of a rusty pickup truck with 2 terrorists getting blown sky high with a $50,000 bomb payed for by US taxpayers as a "victory" It's not. We need a better ROI (return on investment) for that! Find a camp of 200 or 300 of these animals and leave it a stinking smoking pile. NO ONE will miss any one of these evil misfits. Chase and defeat them to the end of the earth!

You've never seen me like this but I am pissed buddies - sorry. Would much rather just be having fun and wish I could get back to that...peace to anyone left over reading this diatribe.

g33
 

Shelter

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I know your feeling Garth33 - I know them very well because you've spoken from my heart. I know how brute it sounds to say: blow a camp of these guys into a stinking pile.

But yes you are right. We are waiting too long for an reaction. In the meantime I have heard that here in Germany shall be more than 200 ex-fighters of IS. What means "ex-fighters"? Why they are not in custody? The official statement of reason: they haven't done anything against our law!!!!! Isn't it reckless?

But that is too Democracy. I believe Churchill eventually said: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried."
 
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dargelos

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Chelsea (Bradley) Manning is unpopular with many, including at a quess maybe with you too garth. You don't have to like her/him to accept that she has seen how the world works from the inside out. So it's worth reading what she says;

Chelsea E Manning in Fort Leavenworth
theguardian.com, Tuesday 16 September 2014 16.00 BST


The Islamic State (Isis) is without question a very brutal extremist group with origins in the insurgency of the United States occupation of Iraq. It has rapidly ascended to global attention by taking control of swaths of territory in western and northern Iraq, including Mosul and other major cities.

Based on my experience as an all-source analyst in Iraq during the organization’s relative infancy, Isis cannot be defeated by bombs and bullets – even as the fight is taken to Syria, even if it is conducted by non-Western forces with air support.

When it comes to regional insurgency with global implications, Isis leaders are canny strategists. It’s clear to me that they have a solid and complete understanding of the strengths and, more importantly, the weaknesses of the west. They know how we tick in America and Europe – and they know what pushes us toward intervention and overreach. This understanding is particularly clear considering the Islamic State’s astonishing success in recruiting numbers of Americans, Britons, Belgians, Danes and other Europeans in their call to arms.

As a strategy to disrupt the growth of Isis, I suggest focusing on four arenas:

Counter the narrative in online Isis recruitment videos – including professionally made videos and amateur battle selfies – to avoid, as best as possible, the deliberate propaganda targeting of desperate and disaffected youth. This would rapidly prevent the recruitment of regional and western members.
Set clear, temporary borders in the region, publicly. This would discourage Isis from taking certain territory where humanitarian crises might be created, or humanitarian efforts impeded.
Establish an international moratorium on the payment of ransom for hostages, and work in the region to prevent Isis from stealing and taxing historical artifacts and valuable treasures as sources of income, and especially from taking over the oil reserves and refineries in Bayji, Iraq. This would disrupt and prevent Isis from maintaining stable and reliable sources of income.
Let Isis succeed in setting up a failed “state” – in a contained area and over a long enough period of time to prove itself unpopular and unable to govern. This might begin to discredit the leadership and ideology of Isis for good.

Eventually, if they are properly contained, I believe that Isis will not be able to sustain itself on rapid growth alone, and will begin to fracture internally. The organization will begin to disintegrate into several smaller, uncoordinated entities – ultimately failing in their objective of creating a strong state.

But the world just needs to be disciplined enough to let the Isis fire die out on its own, intervening carefully and avoiding the cyclic trap of “mission creep”. This is certainly a lot to ask for. But Isis is wielding a sharp, heavy and very deadly double-edged sword. Now just wait for them to fall on it.
 

bigsal

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Chelsea (Bradley) Manning is unpopular with many, including at a quess maybe with you too garth. You don't have to like her/him to accept that she has seen how the world works from the inside out. So it's worth reading what she says;

Chelsea E Manning in Fort Leavenworth
theguardian.com, Tuesday 16 September 2014 16.00 BST


The Islamic State (Isis) is without question a very brutal extremist group with origins in the insurgency of the United States occupation of Iraq. It has rapidly ascended to global attention by taking control of swaths of territory in western and northern Iraq, including Mosul and other major cities.

Based on my experience as an all-source analyst in Iraq during the organization’s relative infancy, Isis cannot be defeated by bombs and bullets – even as the fight is taken to Syria, even if it is conducted by non-Western forces with air support.

When it comes to regional insurgency with global implications, Isis leaders are canny strategists. It’s clear to me that they have a solid and complete understanding of the strengths and, more importantly, the weaknesses of the west. They know how we tick in America and Europe – and they know what pushes us toward intervention and overreach. This understanding is particularly clear considering the Islamic State’s astonishing success in recruiting numbers of Americans, Britons, Belgians, Danes and other Europeans in their call to arms.

As a strategy to disrupt the growth of Isis, I suggest focusing on four arenas:

Counter the narrative in online Isis recruitment videos – including professionally made videos and amateur battle selfies – to avoid, as best as possible, the deliberate propaganda targeting of desperate and disaffected youth. This would rapidly prevent the recruitment of regional and western members.
Set clear, temporary borders in the region, publicly. This would discourage Isis from taking certain territory where humanitarian crises might be created, or humanitarian efforts impeded.
Establish an international moratorium on the payment of ransom for hostages, and work in the region to prevent Isis from stealing and taxing historical artifacts and valuable treasures as sources of income, and especially from taking over the oil reserves and refineries in Bayji, Iraq. This would disrupt and prevent Isis from maintaining stable and reliable sources of income.
Let Isis succeed in setting up a failed “state” – in a contained area and over a long enough period of time to prove itself unpopular and unable to govern. This might begin to discredit the leadership and ideology of Isis for good.

Eventually, if they are properly contained, I believe that Isis will not be able to sustain itself on rapid growth alone, and will begin to fracture internally. The organization will begin to disintegrate into several smaller, uncoordinated entities – ultimately failing in their objective of creating a strong state.

But the world just needs to be disciplined enough to let the Isis fire die out on its own, intervening carefully and avoiding the cyclic trap of “mission creep”. This is certainly a lot to ask for. But Isis is wielding a sharp, heavy and very deadly double-edged sword. Now just wait for them to fall on it.

Also I had read this article and I have promised to share in the forum, but you me preceded.

I also read the survey carried out by Quinnipiac University, where American citizens have spoken about who they believe was the worst President USA of the post-war (of course we talk about the second world war).

Obama is considered the worst President for 33 per cent of respondents, followed by Bush Jr (28 per cent).

Congratulations Mr. Obama have you exceeded the nullity of Bush Jr; an almost impossible task.

And to say that the ordinary people of the world had placed great confidence in him, including me, instead it proved to be more belligerent than its predecessor (Libya, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine and the unconditional support at Netanyahu for the massacre in Gaza).

Really a nice resume for a Nobel Peace Prize.
 

dargelos

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If they asked who was the greatest disappointment then I would agree that Mr Obama was. That's because the world's hopes were so unnaturaly high. GWB was not a dissappointment, we knew he would be a catastrophe and he was.
Even if Mr Obama had turned out to be Bobby Kennedy 2, a section of the voters would still be hating him, for how he was born, not what he had done. And don't underestimate the volume of poison Fox news pumps into American homes everynight.
 
F

frontlemon

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Let me tell you my view:
The humans in this world fall broadly into three categories: A. Good thoughtful people (approximately 10%), B. Morons (80%) and C. Evil thoughtful people(10%).

The fact is people from "C" uses "B" to rule over all "ABC". To destroy ISIS : one needs to destroy either "B" or "C". Destroying "B" is uneconomic as they are the majority... so the viable option is to destroy "C".
But then again its hard to find amongst the stakeholders, a government that is free of people from "C".
 

Shelter

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Let me tell you my view:
The humans in this world fall broadly into three categories: A. Good thoughtful people (approximately 10%), B. Morons (80%) and C. Evil thoughtful people(10%).

The fact is people from "C" uses "B" to rule over all "ABC". To destroy ISIS : one needs to destroy either "B" or "C". Destroying "B" is uneconomic as they are the majority... so the viable option is to destroy "C".
But then again its hard to find amongst the stakeholders, a government that is free of people from "C".

Frontlemon, with only some little words you have got the key to change the world. But as you said .... what happened afterwards? :thinking: p:p
 

bigsal

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If they asked who was the greatest disappointment then I would agree that Mr Obama was. That's because the world's hopes were so unnaturaly high. GWB was not a dissappointment, we knew he would be a catastrophe and he was.
Even if Mr Obama had turned out to be Bobby Kennedy 2, a section of the voters would still be hating him, for how he was born, not what he had done. And don't underestimate the volume of poison Fox news pumps into American homes everynight.

Obviously are interviews on a limited sample of people, but the result is politically troubling, partly because the survey was carried out by a University of north-eastern United States, where the Democratic electorate is very strong. I think the Fox here centers little or no.

Unfortunately, it is no secret that Obama's popularity has dropped to alarming levels.
 

dargelos

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Dear bigsal, when considering the importance of popularity ratings you will remember that Ronald Reagan was highly popular among Americans, did that popularity make him a good man, I don't think so.
In UK Gordon Brown's difficult personality made him unpopular with the media so they made him unpopular with the voters. Look beneath the surface and you will find a very good man.
To do well as US president you need to have a bit of the bastard in you to cope with the bastards working against you. Mr Obama I fear has too much of the Jimmy Carter in him and not enough of the Richard Nixon.
 

dargelos

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Let me tell you my view:
The humans in this world fall broadly into three categories: A. Good thoughtful people (approximately 10%), B. Morons (80%) and C. Evil thoughtful people(10%).

The fact is people from "C" uses "B" to rule over all "ABC". To destroy ISIS : one needs to destroy either "B" or "C". Destroying "B" is uneconomic as they are the majority... so the viable option is to destroy "C".
But then again its hard to find amongst the stakeholders, a government that is free of people from "C".

I will go along with you that there is a majority in the world who don't want to think any wider than they need to or any deeper than they need to. To make the world a better place you may wish to educate some of the B class citizens into becoming A class citizens. Calling them an insulting name like moron will not help to get them on your side. I understand why your anger at the condition of the world makes you reach for a harsh word. How about finding a milder word. Proletariat? that's not right. I cant think of the word right now.
Once B class Muslims have been tricked into becoming Islamic State fighters, I know what I call them then; cannon fodder.
 
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frontlemon

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The word "moron" came to my mind because I have been reading various posts especially in the "Gay news" section of the forum (after reading a post by Shelter which says how his friends are beaten up by homophobic maniacs).
Know that although by usage the term "moron" is used to insult someone but if you really go by the origins of the word it is "used to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 " - source Wikipedia.
This said I would also like to point to the fact that all studies on human intelligence suggests the astonishing fact that over the ages the distribution of human intelligence has always remained constant. (A normal distribution to be exact)
As I would say ... nature always maintains her ratios...
 

Shelter

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Good retaliated Frontlemon!

That is the pepper in a good discussion! -:)
 

dargelos

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All you say is true of course. The human brain, being Mother Nature's most complex creation, is slow to evolve so we have essentialy the same brain as they had in ancient Greece, which means we should be able to learn from the mistakes of previous civilisations. But all we have really learnt is how to kill more people more quickly and make a higher preportion of them innocent civilians.
 

Shelter

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Hi Jazzeven - thank you for your detailed answer to my earlier post here as well as for your critically comments.

And as >I told before many times - my own language is German and not English. I will give you my view as an answer - but i need a little bit more time, because I can't answer your post with only two or three trivial words.

So please give me the time I need and it will be a pleasure for me to answer. OK?
Well, until then ...................
 

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Hello Jazzeven - sorry for being so late. But I have had much to do - and I have a nice BF which wanted something from me -:) ! Hmmm and that was what I love -:) ! I hope you will understand.

But well now to your post.

I know the people of the United States have a speacial form of nationalism. They are proud, sometimes too proud, and they feel as if they have invented democracy. And in this feelings they forget that a bottle of Coca Cola will not bring democracy to all the countries they have invaded after WW II. That will be my opinion.

But on the other hand - no one of all the Democracies in our world is strong enough to fight alone against these IS hordes than the USA.

And sorry if I disagree with you and nevertheless say that IS will everything destroy what stands in their way. They do it ev3ery day and every day now. Don't you see these thousands and thousands of refugees which try to escape from Syria or Iraq to Turkey. Why do you mean they do that? Do you think they are traveling for a holiday in Turkey? They are frighten for their lives - because these "faithful" people will kill them because they are eventually believing in another God!

So I think you are totally right when you say "their agenda clearly contradicts our agenda". But why it is rubbish or nonsense to call these people as evil? Because of their "Agenda". A murderer surely has too an "agenda" and it is for sure that his agenda contradicts with the agenda of the non-murderers. And if I will damn an murderer - than I'll speak rubbish or nonsense only because this murderer has had in your opinion an "agenda"?!

You've said: "The IS will start to dissolve when their members, or even just potential members, will realize that justice can be accomplished on a different way."

Really, do you honestly believe in this statement you have done? If yes, please forgive me - but that will be something what I call rubbish and bitter nonsense. Because it is starry-eyed idealism. Try to go to Syria or to Iraq and try to meet the IS, and if you will be lucky enough to handle that and tell them your good minded opinions that they should to dissolve and come back to the right way - you will see how quickly you will loose your head! And after they have beheaded you they will piss on you and laugh about your naivete.
 
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frontlemon

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Dear Jazzeven, well I am happy that you presented your critical views on Shelter's comment but I personally disagree with some of the things that you said. For example if you agree that:
the IS is not tolerable for a democratic system).
then I would say that what is "non tolerable" to you assuming that you are a believer of democracy is "Evil" to Shelter.
Also I agree completely that
Military action just stalls the problem.
and that
Also one should be aware that by arming other minorities to fight them, one just starts another problem of the same kind.
But I completely agree with Shelter on your statement:
The IS will start to dissolve when their members, or even just potential members, will realize that justice can be accomplished on a different way.
They are not demanding justice, they are administering the justice of their god by beheading others.
Regarding your comment:
starting negotiations before they become equally difficult or even impossible.
let me tell you a shortened story that even we don't get to hear often in our history books. When India was struggling for its independence, cast system was widely prevalent among the Indian society. There was a group of low caste people living in a small village near Gujarat (the birthplace of M.K. Gandhi)who used to be severely exploited by the upper class Brahmins of that region. Inspired by ideology of M.K. Gandhi they started a form of non - cooperation movement and resorted to negotiations. The outcome: one fine morning it was found that the whole village was completely wiped from the face of the world and the inhabitants brutally murdered and nobody was spared.
The morale: You decide....
 

Shelter

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You are a very good debater for your purpose, Jazzeven.

You havn't seen any analogy in that little and tragic story frontlemon told you? Well - it is very late now and someone is calling me that I've to go to bed. And I want to huddle up against my boyfriend for a moment. So we will meet here tomorrow again with an answer. And forgive me, if my English will be a little bit halting.

So Jazzeven - until tomorrow let's do it again -:)
 
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frontlemon

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Have a look how the IS came into existence: The former rulers of the Iraq became a minority, which got pushed out of important positions. That way they lost trust in the new state and started to fear becoming the scapegoat of the nation. So without any kind of perspective, it becomes much more likely to follow a weird idea, which at least promises not to go without a fight.

Am waiting Shelter's response but here is a very shortened version of what I wanted to say in the short story that I wrote in my post:
Given the above quote I would like to tell you that fear may drive a person to become lunatic and think of the situation where someone is trying to reason with a lunatic... "sometimes" you cannot negotiate or reason with a lunatic and lunaticism that derives from faith is a tough nut to crack.
 
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