To Norway at this moment of sorrow

[Whisper]

777 brings up an interesting point about politics, but one I don't agree with. If you have a fringe opinion that is not shared by others then, in a democracy, your government should not be doing what you want, it should be doing what the majority wants!

If you hold a fringe view you should not be discriminated against, your free speech should not be silenced, but you should not expect to get your way unless and until you can talk a majority over to your opinion. It's not a failing in the political system that an extremist did not feel the government was doing what he wanted!

B.

Also to 777: no more politics, please!!
Just in case

 

[Whisper]

I'm listening to the reports... there's no certainty of other participants. The kids are saying the gunman continued shooting for an hour and a half, walking around smiling. Just when they thought it was over it started again, and again. He was wearing a police uniform so people thought he was coming to help and then he opened fire.

That guy is sick!!!

 

[777]

777 brings up an interesting point about politics, but one I don't agree with. If you have a fringe opinion that is not shared by others then, in a democracy, your government should not be doing what you want, it should be doing what the majority wants!

If you hold a fringe view you should not be discriminated against, your free speech should not be silenced, but you should not expect to get your way unless and until you can talk a majority over to your opinion. It's not a failing in the political system that an extremist did not feel the government was doing what he wanted!

B.

I agree with the last statement, though I do think it's a bit more complicated than that. Not talking about individuals, since each person does what ever they do of their own reasons, but as a whole, certain kind of politics do bring out problems that could be avoided by doing different politics. Makes the probability of something higher than it might be.

In Finland for example, the average income is 3000, but the reality of it is that half of Finnish people earn a lot more than that, and the other half a lot less than that. About 700 000 people (out of 5 mil) are considered poor. Rich tend to vote for National Coalition Party, which is decidedly right wing party. It's the biggest party at the moment. Rich people are usually better at voting, and generally taking care of their rights than poor, who often don't even think it'll matter. And with the current situation it doesn't because of the economics that aren't even considered to be politics, just something that needs "rational" decisions. So many people vote True Finns in hope for change and hate all non-finnish for taking jobs and all that. True Finns wouldn't be interesting if people saw there was hope in the other parties... I don't know, I do think there's a failing somewhere there.

Anyway, that is getting beside the point which is that individuals do things as individuals but if there's enough of them it becomes something else than just individuals doing separate things.

 

[slimjim]

Sorry guys and gal. There has been a little misunderstanding. To me the term "crazy" means something along the lines of "barking at the moon/totally deranged/outwardly wacko"

The point I was trying to make, and obviously failing to, was that whilst planning and then organising this ghastly atrocity there would have most likely been no outward signs in his behaviour as to the what was to come, as I said before - cold, calculating and callous. How often have neighbours of such insane sociopaths described them along the lines of " ... a quiet man who kept himself to himself.." They are the really dangerous ones, as no-one can spot them until it's too late.

 

[Whisper]

Sorry guys and gal. There has been a little misunderstanding. To me the term "crazy" means something along the lines of "barking at the moon/totally deranged/outwardly wacko"

The point I was trying to make, and obviously failing to, was that whilst planning and then organising this ghastly atrocity there would have most likely been no outward signs in his behaviour as to the what was to come, as I said before - cold, calculating and callous. How often have neighbours of such insane sociopaths described them along the lines of " ... a quiet man who kept himself to himself.." They are the really dangerous ones, as no-one can spot them until it's too late.

Misunderstandings happens, especially in places/situations like these where people have different mother tongues

 

[777]

Also to 777: no more politics, please!!
Just in case

Oops, didn't notice this! I'll shut up

 

[Whisper]

Oops, didn't notice this! I'll shut up

 

[gb2000ie]

[/COLOR]How often have neighbours of such insane sociopaths described them along the lines of " ... a quiet man who kept himself to himself.." They are the really dangerous ones, as no-one can spot them until it's too late.[/FONT][/I][/B]

A very good point.

These people are mentally ill, but without the symptoms that would ensure they get noticed and cared for. So like you say, they are only noticed when it's too late, and when they've done something terrible like this

B.

 

[777]

A very good point.

These people are mentally ill, but without the symptoms that would ensure they get noticed and cared for. So like you say, they are only noticed when it's too late, and when they've done something terrible like this

B.

I have to confess when I read about the shooter, the lines "lived with his mother until few weeks ago before the shooting" made me think that now that's a symptom of something :worried:

 

[ritsuka]

I agree with 777, and neoliberal economics are the fringe, put forth by a small class that is the one who should be ignored, instead of celebrated while their poverty policies give rise to right wing social movements. Ultimately, I don't agree that we should ignore politics in this situation; the way it will be responded to is inherently political. When disasters happen, if people only respond emotionally and refuse to examine or critique how those with power are reacting to the tragedy, then we allow them to take oppressive tactics to further their own ideology and thwart social justice, while very soon our feelings have moved on to the next event. I'm interested to see if the Norwegian government is going to respond to this with the kind of cynical political overreaching that we've seen many other governments perform when "terrorism" happens.

 

[Whisper]

I agree with 777, and neoliberal economics are the fringe, put forth by a small class that is the one who should be ignored, instead of celebrated while their poverty policies give rise to right wing social movements. Ultimately, I don't agree that we should ignore politics in this situation; the way it will be responded to is inherently political. When disasters happen, if people only respond emotionally and refuse to examine or critique how those with power are reacting to the tragedy, then we allow them to take oppressive tactics to further their own ideology and thwart social justice, while very soon our feelings have moved on to the next event. I'm interested to see if the Norwegian government is going to respond to this with the kind of cynical political overreaching that we've seen many other governments perform when "terrorism" happens.

That comment was just because I don't want this thread to become any sort of battle zone like couple threads earlier. Of course it is practically impossible to avoid/ignore politics in a situation like this.

... blah, never mind me guys & girls, I'm tired and should stop answering for tonight...

 

[Rozas]

 

[Minos]

Do you understand the world we`re living in?

what happened in Oslo was awful and unforgivable.

but, not only Norway, just take a look around!!

The gaza strip, Afghanistan, Iraq, september 11, so many countries in Africa.

Some people just do not think twice before taking someone else`s life!

There have been so many fathers, mothers, children, students (possibly future doctors, teachers, lawyers, engineers what have you) that were brutally and meaninglessly killed for nothing!

I could have written a novel, but long story short, sometimes i feel a little bit ashamed for being human.

 

[Whisper]

Do you understand the world we`re living in?

what happened in Oslo was awful and unforgivable.

but, not only Norway, just take a look around!!

The gaza strip, Afghanistan, Iraq, september 11, so many countries in Africa.

Some people just do not think twice before taking someone else`s life!

There have been so many fathers, mothers, children, students (possibly future doctors, teachers, lawyers, engineers what have you) that were brutally and meaninglessly killed for nothing!

I could have written a novel, but long story short, sometimes i feel a little bit ashamed for being human.

No, I don't understand. All this and everything happened/happening/will happen around the world; human is a cruel creature, who will destroy all eventually. Yep, I'm being pessimistic, it is just so hard to think positive, but have to try....

 

[zortek]

i'll just keep it simple...

my thoughts, hopes and deepest sympathy to norway and its people.

(and i really hope all of our friends and loved ones are ok)


(i can never understand the maniacs responsible for these behaviours, and even less their reasons)

 

[brmstn69]

Forgive me for this, but there is something that my Marine mind just cannot comprehend...

Why didn't anyone fight back? I know there were many children there but there were also older teens and adult staff. It was one armed man against hundreds. If even just a few 3,4,5... would have swarmed him he could have been stopped with only a few casualties.
Even in 9/11 attacks, the passengers had the hijackers outnumbered by a minimum of 10 to 1, and all they had were box cutters. Only the plane with the fewest passengers (44) chose to fight back, yes they all died in the crash, but at least they saved countless others by preventing the hijackers form reaching their target.

Why do most people when faced with what seems to be certain death, become lambs for the slaughter rather than take a chance and fight to survive, no matter how futile it may seem...

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, I just really don't understand...

 

[blast27]

I, too, have wondered why those young people in Norway didn't fight back. I like to think I would have done, but I don't know....

The only time I've ever done anything good was when I grabbed a small child who was running out into the road. I managed to get hold of her just before the car would have hit. I did it instinctively. The whole thing was over before I had time to think anything. I didn't think the car could have hit me, until afterwards.

It might be that the young people in Norway had too much time to think - a few seconds would be enough. If it was me I might have been too frightened, I might have hoped that someone else would take responsibility, I might have not wanted to stand out from the crowd.

Perhaps we should all decided now that faced with something like this we would act to stop it, in the hope that we never would be faced with it.

 

[Daedalus]

Forgive me for this, but there is something that my Marine mind just cannot comprehend...

Why didn't anyone fight back? I know there were many children there but there were also older teens and adult staff. It was one armed man against hundreds. If even just a few 3,4,5... would have swarmed him he could have been stopped with only a few casualties.
Even in 9/11 attacks, the passengers had the hijackers outnumbered by a minimum of 10 to 1, and all they had were box cutters. Only the plane with the fewest passengers (44) chose to fight back, yes they all died in the crash, but at least they saved countless others by preventing the hijackers form reaching their target.

Why do most people when faced with what seems to be certain death, become lambs for the slaughter rather than take a chance and fight to survive, no matter how futile it may seem...

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, I just really don't understand...

Another idea is to 'play dead', especially if a number of others around you have already been shot. Just lie down on the ground and stay still until the shooter moves on. Then get up, call the police and warn other people in the area and tell folks what the shooter looks like and what to expect. But I guess because the shooter was dressed as a policeman folks became confused and so it was more difficult to decide -in the heat of the moment- on a good defense (or offense). :/

 

[gb2000ie]

Another idea is to 'play dead', especially if a number of others around you have already been shot. Just lie down on the ground and stay still until the shooter moves on. Then get up, call the police and warn other people in the area and tell folks what the shooter looks like and what to expect. But I guess because the shooter was dressed as a policeman folks became confused and so it was more difficult to decide -in the heat of the moment- on a good defense (or offense). :/

I had a great uncle who survived a fireing squad that way when he was a missionary in Zaire in the 1960s overthrow of the Belgian occupation there. It can work.

I think it's much easier to think about things like that when your body is not pumped full of adrenaline which kills your common sense and pumps you up to fight or flight.

B.

 

[777]

Another idea is to 'play dead', especially if a number of others around you have already been shot. Just lie down on the ground and stay still until the shooter moves on. Then get up, call the police and warn other people in the area and tell folks what the shooter looks like and what to expect. But I guess because the shooter was dressed as a policeman folks became confused and so it was more difficult to decide -in the heat of the moment- on a good defense (or offense). :/

Some of the survivors did play dead, some covered with bodies of others, some wounded. Someone informed the police but the whole situation was chaotic, some even say there was another shooter too and I can imagine bullets seemed to come from every direction. It would cease for a while, then suddenly start again. I wouldn't get up in a situation like that either. They probably didn't have phones on them either, one rescuer who took people from the island by boat said that many of them didn't even have proper clothes on them so they were really taken by surprise.