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To Norway at this moment of sorrow

gb2000ie

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Forgive me for this, but there is something that my Marine mind just cannot comprehend...

Why didn't anyone fight back? I know there were many children there but there were also older teens and adult staff. It was one armed man against hundreds. If even just a few 3,4,5... would have swarmed him he could have been stopped with only a few casualties.
Even in 9/11 attacks, the passengers had the hijackers outnumbered by a minimum of 10 to 1, and all they had were box cutters. Only the plane with the fewest passengers (44) chose to fight back, yes they all died in the crash, but at least they saved countless others by preventing the hijackers form reaching their target.

Why do most people when faced with what seems to be certain death, become lambs for the slaughter rather than take a chance and fight to survive, no matter how futile it may seem...

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, I just really don't understand...

Given how little we know and how much we don't know I can't bring myself to cast doubts on the victims bravery. I don't think it's fair to make assumptions about what the victims did or didn't do, or did or didn't try to do - we simply don't know how many of them tried to fight back. For all we know many of them died very heroically defending others and/or trying to take the gunman down.

Remember, this wasn't a barracks full of trained marines, it was a camp full of kids with a few instructors.

B.
 

777

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Forgive me for this, but there is something that my Marine mind just cannot comprehend...

Why didn't anyone fight back? I know there were many children there but there were also older teens and adult staff. It was one armed man against hundreds. If even just a few 3,4,5... would have swarmed him he could have been stopped with only a few casualties.
Even in 9/11 attacks, the passengers had the hijackers outnumbered by a minimum of 10 to 1, and all they had were box cutters. Only the plane with the fewest passengers (44) chose to fight back, yes they all died in the crash, but at least they saved countless others by preventing the hijackers form reaching their target.

Why do most people when faced with what seems to be certain death, become lambs for the slaughter rather than take a chance and fight to survive, no matter how futile it may seem...

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, I just really don't understand...

At least one victim went to stand in front of him and talk to him (he listened for a while and shot the person). That's pretty incredible thing to do in my books. I just read that there was one police officer among the victims too, he had been hired to the island to keep order, but he had been unarmed too.
 

Tjerk12

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I think that it is a normal human reaction to flee for danger. When there is a fire in a cinema or a disco, most casualties are because of the panic. People want to flee, seek safety. It is not always a clever thing to do, but fully understandable. It would be an interesting experiment to ask a group of people how they would act if they came in a situation as in Norway. I am sure that it would be a long discussion and perhaps they find a way to tackle the problem. However, after hours of discussion and thinking. The victims in Norway didn't have that time. Most people are not very assertive in not exercised situations. I am certainly not, for sure!
Heroes or cowards, what is the real difference. I searched in the dictionary and found some interesting explanations. A hero is a person who does a dangerous thing and brings it to a good end. A coward is a person who flees from danger. Presume somebody gets kidnapped and is able to flee. Is he a hero or a coward?
People just get overwhelmed by situations they can't handle.
 

gb2000ie

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I think that it is a normal human reaction to flee for danger. When there is a fire in a cinema or a disco, most casualties are because of the panic. People want to flee, seek safety. It is not always a clever thing to do, but fully understandable. It would be an interesting experiment to ask a group of people how they would act if they came in a situation as in Norway. I am sure that it would be a long discussion and perhaps they find a way to tackle the problem. However, after hours of discussion and thinking. The victims in Norway didn't have that time. Most people are not very assertive in not exercised situations. I am certainly not, for sure!
Heroes or cowards, what is the real difference. I searched in the dictionary and found some interesting explanations. A hero is a person who does a dangerous thing and brings it to a good end. A coward is a person who flees from danger. Presume somebody gets kidnapped and is able to flee. Is he a hero or a coward?
People just get overwhelmed by situations they can't handle.

I can't argue with any of that - so I'll add a little more.

There's a very strong biological component to 'panic', when we're in danger our bodies are pumped full of adrenaline which has some very real physical and mental effects on us. "Fight or Flight" overpowers logic in most people, especially if you've never been trained to fight back against your instincts and your biology.

People panic in cinemas etc because that's what our biology drives us to do.

B.
 

brmstn69

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I was not my intention to question the bravery of the victims. It's just that I have a military background and think differently and tend to forget that not everyone thinks like me...

But the fact is that the world is different now...

What was once unthinkable is now almost commonplace...

Hijackings...

School shooting sprees...

workplace shooting sprees...

Shopping Mall massacres...

Hell, the day this happened, there was also six shot to death at a kids birthday party at a roller rink and 8 shot at a car show...

People need to prepare themselves and their families to handle whatever happens. Schools and business need to run "Terror Drills" like they do for fire and tornadoes.

TV and radio stations should have PSA's offering tips...

I'm not saying that we should all live in fear, just be prepared...

People should know that in a situation such as this, with one shooter vs. a large group, the best chance for survival it to swarm him.

People should know that even the best trained marksman has little chance against multiple, rapidly advancing targets. That if 5-10 rush him from different directions, he will only be able to get off a few quick, unaimed shots. That when you run away, you give him the edge because he can take his time (in this case 90 min.) to kill you one by one...
 

777

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People should know that in a situation such as this, with one shooter vs. a large group, the best chance for survival it to swarm him.

People should know that even the best trained marksman has little chance against multiple, rapidly advancing targets. That if 5-10 rush him from different directions, he will only be able to get off a few quick, unaimed shots. That when you run away, you give him the edge because he can take his time (in this case 90 min.) to kill you one by one...

Teaching that in schools especially would sound like a good idea.
 

gb2000ie

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I was not my intention to question the bravery of the victims. It's just that I have a military background and think differently and tend to forget that not everyone thinks like me...

But the fact is that the world is different now...

What was once unthinkable is now almost commonplace...

Hijackings...

School shooting sprees...

workplace shooting sprees...

Shopping Mall massacres...

Hell, the day this happened, there was also six shot to death at a kids birthday party at a roller rink and 8 shot at a car show...

People need to prepare themselves and their families to handle whatever happens. Schools and business need to run "Terror Drills" like they do for fire and tornadoes.

TV and radio stations should have PSA's offering tips...

I'm not saying that we should all live in fear, just be prepared...

People should know that in a situation such as this, with one shooter vs. a large group, the best chance for survival it to swarm him.

People should know that even the best trained marksman has little chance against multiple, rapidly advancing targets. That if 5-10 rush him from different directions, he will only be able to get off a few quick, unaimed shots. That when you run away, you give him the edge because he can take his time (in this case 90 min.) to kill you one by one...

I don't think it's possible to teach kids what to do if a gunman comes in without them thinking that is likely to happen and being scared.

I also think there is a real selection bias in the news towards reporting the unusual, and that includes school and shopping mall shootings etc.. I'm not saying that as a criticism, it's just the way news works, something that happens every day is not news, while something unusual is. I think there are many more pressing dangers we could prepare our kids for than the unlikely event of finding yourself in a shooting.

Things are of course also very different in different countries. Perhaps things have gotten that bad in the US that it is time to exchange some of our kids ignorance for training in what to do in a shooting, but that same trade-off is very different here in Ireland for example. Here we have never had a single school shooting or anything like that. It might happen some day, but the chances are tiny, so scaring our kids seems like an over-reaction to me.

The only positive thing I could see coming out of scaring kids about guns is that when they grow up they'd all be anti-gun and would vote for better gun control. As much as I'm anti-gun, I still think it's better to let kids be kids than to scare them about shootings.

B.
 
S

SimplyJakeAndAlex

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I was not my intention to question the bravery of the victims. It's just that I have a military background and think differently and tend to forget that not everyone thinks like me...

But the fact is that the world is different now...

What was once unthinkable is now almost commonplace...

Hijackings...

School shooting sprees...

workplace shooting sprees...

Shopping Mall massacres...

Hell, the day this happened, there was also six shot to death at a kids birthday party at a roller rink and 8 shot at a car show...

People need to prepare themselves and their families to handle whatever happens. Schools and business need to run "Terror Drills" like they do for fire and tornadoes.

TV and radio stations should have PSA's offering tips...

I'm not saying that we should all live in fear, just be prepared...

People should know that in a situation such as this, with one shooter vs. a large group, the best chance for survival it to swarm him.

People should know that even the best trained marksman has little chance against multiple, rapidly advancing targets. That if 5-10 rush him from different directions, he will only be able to get off a few quick, unaimed shots. That when you run away, you give him the edge because he can take his time (in this case 90 min.) to kill you one by one...
I understand what you mean, I am also a trained military dude with years of Martial arts, but in the fire of the moment one also have to think about his own life. Being trained and I know about it does pretty much the opposite of the non trained, adrenaline fuel us. I once run after someone who just stole a lady's purse and when I got close to him he pulled a knife...which went flying away with a jump kick. I am trained you don't do that to me I might just kill you right on the spot but not everyone can do that. So stay put and call for help is the best advice. And the dude is a sociopath for those who'd ask how we sociologists classified those crazy fucks. A psychopath has normally some accounted mental illness, while a sociopath kills for political or religious reasons, or any other social reason, they have a motive (not a good one, but they do).
 

777

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I don't think it's possible to teach kids what to do if a gunman comes in without them thinking that is likely to happen and being scared.

I also think there is a real selection bias in the news towards reporting the unusual, and that includes school and shopping mall shootings etc.. I'm not saying that as a criticism, it's just the way news works, something that happens every day is not news, while something unusual is. I think there are many more pressing dangers we could prepare our kids for than the unlikely event of finding yourself in a shooting.

Things are of course also very different in different countries. Perhaps things have gotten that bad in the US that it is time to exchange some of our kids ignorance for training in what to do in a shooting, but that same trade-off is very different here in Ireland for example. Here we have never had a single school shooting or anything like that. It might happen some day, but the chances are tiny, so scaring our kids seems like an over-reaction to me.

The only positive thing I could see coming out of scaring kids about guns is that when they grow up they'd all be anti-gun and would vote for better gun control. As much as I'm anti-gun, I still think it's better to let kids be kids than to scare them about shootings.

B.

Kids are a lot smarter than adults often give them credit for, and talk about things like these and other stuff among themselves. Is it better to let them figure it out by themselves, or is it better to give them reliable information? I vote for the latter. Even though no-one can ever really be prepared to get into middle of something like this, and in the panic everything learned can just fade away, it gives some kind of sense of (false, maybe) security to have at least theoretical information about what would be the best course of action in case something happened. I'm certain that every time something like this happens it's the topic in school corridors, and everyone is asking "what would you do".

We said the same thing here in Finland before the school shootings. We have had pretty liberal gun laws, but they've never been a problem before these modern heroes saw what happened in USA and decided to go with it too. We can't really prevent it from happening again. I know Whisper doesn't like me going into politics so much, but we can't really ignore that one of the reasons here (in Finland) is that when the state cut funding in youth mental health care, it did a huge huge huge disservice to everyone. They have taken some actions back because of the fairly big raise in the suicide rates in teenagers, but the fact remains that it's not enough. When more and more children grow up in families that have unemployment and other social issues, the more there is need for real help for them. It's not only the poor children who suffer the impact.
 

Whisper

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Kids are a lot smarter than adults often give them credit for, and talk about things like these and other stuff among themselves. Is it better to let them figure it out by themselves, or is it better to give them reliable information? I vote for the latter.

I know Whisper doesn't like me going into politics so much

First, I agree and the second one, don't mind about me, I was just so tired, not thinking clearly :)
 

gb2000ie

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Kids are a lot smarter than adults often give them credit for, and talk about things like these and other stuff among themselves. Is it better to let them figure it out by themselves, or is it better to give them reliable information? I vote for the latter. Even though no-one can ever really be prepared to get into middle of something like this, and in the panic everything learned can just fade away, it gives some kind of sense of (false, maybe) security to have at least theoretical information about what would be the best course of action in case something happened. I'm certain that every time something like this happens it's the topic in school corridors, and everyone is asking "what would you do".

Kids in most of the world have no idea of the true horrors that were perpetrated in Norway. They hear some stuff on the news about something that happened far away, they are not sitting at home panicing that a gunman is about to come barging through the door of the school. Now - if you start to teach them about the logistics of such attacks and how they should react etc., then they will assume the danger is very real and be very frightened.

Look at the numbers, look at the statistics, the events in Norway are very news-wortyh but very rare. Even in the USA, what is the percentage of school kids who have been killed in school shootings? It's going to be a millionth of a percent or something shockingly small like that. Then look at the numbers affected by accidents on the roads, or who get kidnapped. Those percentages are also small because we live in a very safe time relative to our past, but those small numbers are almost certainly much bigger than the number of kids who die in events like last weekend's.

Simply put, there are many much more important things we need to teach our kids that have a much better chance of saving their lives. Just off the top of my head I think it's vital that kids be thought road safety, that is where they are most likely to die early. I also think kids need to be thought about basic safety when they're out in public. Don't accept gifts from strangers, don't get into cars with strangers etc.. And of course, kids need to be thought to look after themselves online too. Not to mention the truths about drugs and sex. Kids are much more likely to overdose on something, get pregnant, or contract an STD than to be caught up in a school shooting.

You only have so much time, and kids only have so much attention, so you need to be sure to spend the limited storage space in their little heads wisely, and I don't think filling them with fear of gunmen is wise or helpful.

There is also the fact that you can't TELL someone how to react in a panic, you have to TRAIN them. Unless you've been trained the adrenaline rush will overpower you, and anything some teacher said will vanish from the mind in a millisecond.

Finally - if you kids ask you questions about stuff they hear on the news, you should answer their questions truthfully, but you shouldn't volunteer more than they ask for. That goes for anything adult really.

We said the same thing here in Finland before the school shootings. We have had pretty liberal gun laws, but they've never been a problem before these modern heroes saw what happened in USA and decided to go with it too.

Doesn't teaching kids about how to react and what to expect in shootings not make them more likely to happen? Wouldn't that create infinitely more copycats than just the US influence already has?

We can't really prevent it from happening again. I know Whisper doesn't like me going into politics so much, but we can't really ignore that one of the reasons here (in Finland) is that when the state cut funding in youth mental health care, it did a huge huge huge disservice to everyone. They have taken some actions back because of the fairly big raise in the suicide rates in teenagers, but the fact remains that it's not enough. When more and more children grow up in families that have unemployment and other social issues, the more there is need for real help for them. It's not only the poor children who suffer the impact.

For an avowed liberal I have some very old-fashioned ideas some things, and one of them is that I think greed has destroyed the fabric of society, and that we're failing our kids and indeed all our citizens. It's more than just taking away mental health services, but doing that is certainly exceptionally un-helpful. It's about not leaving kids out in education, about getting to know your neighbours and building up a community again, and it's obviously about healthcare.

Society always has an impulse to react to the last crisis out of passion and emotion, rather then to think analytically. In my eyes, if the lesson taken from these shootings is that we need to teach kids how to respond in shootings, then we've just fallen into that trap again.

B.
 

777

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Kids in most of the world have no idea of the true horrors that were perpetrated in Norway. They hear some stuff on the news about something that happened far away, they are not sitting at home panicing that a gunman is about to come barging through the door of the school. Now - if you start to teach them about the logistics of such attacks and how they should react etc., then they will assume the danger is very real and be very frightened.

After the school shootings in Finland they gave crisis help in most schools. It's not traumatising only to the schools affected because the modern media brings things close to people. You don't just hear about it second hand, you see images in TV, write about it, participate. They know how to look up information on their own, enough to be very frightened. The danger may seem very real, considering that there was no warning, they happened in small towns by seemingly normal people.

Look at the numbers, look at the statistics, the events in Norway are very news-wortyh but very rare. Even in the USA, what is the percentage of school kids who have been killed in school shootings? It's going to be a millionth of a percent or something shockingly small like that. Then look at the numbers affected by accidents on the roads, or who get kidnapped. Those percentages are also small because we live in a very safe time relative to our past, but those small numbers are almost certainly much bigger than the number of kids who die in events like last weekend's.

Simply put, there are many much more important things we need to teach our kids that have a much better chance of saving their lives. Just off the top of my head I think it's vital that kids be thought road safety, that is where they are most likely to die early. I also think kids need to be thought about basic safety when they're out in public. Don't accept gifts from strangers, don't get into cars with strangers etc.. And of course, kids need to be thought to look after themselves online too. Not to mention the truths about drugs and sex. Kids are much more likely to overdose on something, get pregnant, or contract an STD than to be caught up in a school shooting.

You only have so much time, and kids only have so much attention, so you need to be sure to spend the limited storage space in their little heads wisely, and I don't think filling them with fear of gunmen is wise or helpful.

There is also the fact that you can't TELL someone how to react in a panic, you have to TRAIN them. Unless you've been trained the adrenaline rush will overpower you, and anything some teacher said will vanish from the mind in a millisecond.

Finally - if you kids ask you questions about stuff they hear on the news, you should answer their questions truthfully, but you shouldn't volunteer more than they ask for. That goes for anything adult really.

Doesn't teaching kids about how to react and what to expect in shootings not make them more likely to happen? Wouldn't that create infinitely more copycats than just the US influence already has?

They are taught about those things too, in different age stages. You are right, there's a lot of other things they are likely to do, but the same could be said about many other things too. It's not about the reality of things, it's about the feeling of things. Teaching the best course of action in situations where someone has a gun could easily be included to other (often useless) things. There's always ones that remember and who can help others too. I don't think teenagers are too young... They need to be treated differently than smaller kids. Considering that girls go through self defence in P.E., would something like that be any different? Or any more effective even.

For an avowed liberal I have some very old-fashioned ideas some things, and one of them is that I think greed has destroyed the fabric of society, and that we're failing our kids and indeed all our citizens. It's more than just taking away mental health services, but doing that is certainly exceptionally un-helpful. It's about not leaving kids out in education, about getting to know your neighbours and building up a community again, and it's obviously about healthcare.

Society always has an impulse to react to the last crisis out of passion and emotion, rather then to think analytically. In my eyes, if the lesson taken from these shootings is that we need to teach kids how to respond in shootings, then we've just fallen into that trap again.

B.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It just feels that society is moving further and further away to American concept of individualism and society. Beneficial if you are very rich, maybe, though I don't know why living in a mansion behind a very tight security sounds fun to anyone.
 
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