Why does homosexuality exist??

[gorgik9]

Hrmmm...about what you say that "[e]ach one has the free will to choose..."

If you read Spinoza's Ethics, you will find that the so-called "free will" doesn't exist and that nature is totally determined...and Nietzsche said just about the same thing...

 

[gb2000ie]

Hrmmm...about what you say that "[e]ach one has the free will to choose..."

If you read Spinoza's Ethics, you will find that the so-called "free will" doesn't exist and that nature is totally determined...and Nietzsche said just about the same thing...

Those are not facts though, those are opinions. They are based on a Newtonian view of the universe, and they really don't gel at all well with Quantum mechanics.

Newton thought that if you could measure everything well enough you could wind the universe forward for ever, he called it the Clockwork Universe. However, we now know that at the lowest level, the universe is 'fuzzy' and probabilistic, so there is no clockwork at the heart of the universe.

B.

 

[gorgik9]

Those are not facts though, those are opinions. They are based on a Newtonian view of the universe, and they really don't gel at all well with Quantum mechanics.

Newton thought that if you could measure everything well enough you could wind the universe forward for ever, he called it the Clockwork Universe. However, we now know that at the lowest level, the universe is 'fuzzy' and probabilistic, so there is no clockwork at the heart of the universe.

B.

Well, no. Baruch Spinoza was the jewish philosopher from Amsterdam and one of the most hated thinkers in european history, equally hated by both jews and christians, both protestants and catholics - this very meek and mild man was for more than a hundred years more hated than the devil. Newton, mind you, was in many respects a very,very,very ordinary anglican christian and newtonian physics was preached in the big churches in London in the early 18th century. Newton described a universe constructed by the good Lord allmighty and so perfectly well understood by the good Lords favourite matematician, the equally good sir Isaac.

Sir Isaac read his Bible like a good fundamentalist christian should, doing years of numerological work to figure out the correct date of the Last Judgement and the second coming of Christ. Newton spent more time on biblical numerology than on what WE consider his scientific work.

Spinoza on the other hand published his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus in the early 1670s, which was and is one of the earliest and most brilliant thought thru critical readings of the bible; it is correct to say, that Spinoza was one of the true pioneers in historical criticism. Of course, this was one of the many things that made him oh-so-hated.

But of course Spinoza's greatest and most important philosophical work was his posthumously published Ethica ordine geometrico demonstrata. I many ways you can say, Spinoza's Ethics is what every grandiose work of metaphysical philosophy is - a methodical and complete playing through of all the philosophers metaphysical concepts. He gives us his total conceptual image of being, the universe and man - just as Descartes gave his conceptual image, Hobbes his, Leibniz his, and so on.

There are no neutral "facts" to decide which conceptual image is correct - Spinoza, or Newton or Leibniz or anybody else.

Or please tell me what kind of "facts" could decide whether the true God was Newtons Creator-God, who created the world and nature "in the beginning" governd by the Laws of Nature expressing Gods will;
or if the true God was Spinoza's Deus sive Natura, God-or-Nature.

 

[jaykaytooooo]

Why ask why?

Native Americans had a unique view on homosexuals. They believed they were blessed and possessed two spirits, one male and one female. The "Two Spirit People" were some of the most valued, revered, and respected members of the tribe. The Native Americans never asked why, they just accepted. They understood that sexuality and gender identification covered a broad spectrum going beyond male and female. It was natural, accepted, and even encouraged, without prejudice and without question.

http://www.examiner.com/article/pre-colonial-homosexuality-native-american-gender-roles

I am american indian myself, and it was not until europeans came to America that this view changed.

Very good conversation though! Makes you think!

 

[theseeker]

Why do cats exist? That's what I've always wanted to know. :thinking:

Snarky attempt at humor there. But still, I gotta say you've got a good point.

Thanks for the answers, guys! You've made me realize that perhaps the question should be on morality/society instead. I don't live in the US (though I've always wanted to), neither do I live in a predominantly Christian society (we're supposed to be equally accepting of all races and religion), but still we're as homophobic as any other society around the world. Maybe it's because of the influence of US media? Or perhaps somewhen around the last 100-200 years ago all 'modern' societies decided to sit down together and agree "hey, let's just hate all non-hetero relationships"? I don't know... .... But what I do know is that some of the closest people I know (not that I have that many) are very homophobic, and all my life I've been trying to fit in. I already don't have much to live for, and I feel that if I ever do accept this fact (even if it IS a fact), I'd lose what little I have. Incidences like what Shelter's friends have gone through just makes accepting this fact even more terrifying.

Anyways, it's great to hear so many thoughts, opinions, and explanations on this topic. I'd love to hear it if anyone has more to share!

 

[ihno]

Well, no...

Quantum-mechanics, discovered in the early 20th century, 100-200 years after Spinoza and Newton died, put a big question mark to the determinism. There are different interpretations of Quantum-mechanics, some - like the multi-universe-theory or the "hidden parameters"- allow determinsm, some like the Kopenhagen-interpretation say that the universe is not determined.

 

[Shelter]

Thank you Skinjo9 for your intelligent words. And be sure I will follow the way you showed me with your words. I'm proud to be a gay and I or as well all gay friends over the world will have their human right to kiss openly as it do as well heteros. I'll have the right to go with my friend hand in hand without having the fear to be insulted as a fag or as it will be said here in Germany "schwule Sau"! I don't harm anyone why they do it to us? What is bad in the case to love if it will be a man or a girl. Love is the sunshine in our live! Without love we will die like a flower without water. The western countries do very liberal in the open but behind the scene most countries are like in medivial times.

 

[pinklee1]

I think this is germaine but...

what if all gay people at birth had a fatal gene that caused them to die before they reached puberty since the start of time?:thinking:
How many great people (LGBT) would never have shared their talents, genius, discoveries and the like? Many of the world's greatest thinkers, inventors, scientists, poets, discoverers, leaders, politicians, humanitarians, soldiers, warriors and artists have been (and are) gay. How poor would the world be if they had been lost to us by this hypothetical gene? the world and all societies are enriched by their contributions to humanity.:thumbs up::cheers (Not sure about cats though...joking since I love cats)

 

[ihno]

what if all gay people at birth had a fatal gene that caused them to die before they reached puberty since the start of time?:thinking:
How many great people (LGBT) would never have shared their talents, genius, discoveries and the like? Many of the world's greatest thinkers, inventors, scientists, poets, discoverers, leaders, politicians, humanitarians, soldiers, warriors and artists have been (and are) gay. How poor would the world be if they had been lost to us by this hypothetical gene? the world and all societies are enriched by their contributions to humanity.:thumbs up::cheers (Not sure about cats though...joking since I love cats)

You're arguing with the "value" of gay people. Something that the conservatives today think too: gays are good for the economy.

I think that gay and lesbians etc. have their rights and dignity even if they would all be untalented and stupid.

 

[Shelter]

You're arguing with the "value" of gay people. Something that the conservatives today think too: gays are good for the economy.

I think that gay and lesbians etc. have their rights and dignity even if they would all be untalented and stupid.

Every human being, talented, untalented, gay, hetero, bi, jew, christian, black or yellow has the rights and the dignity because he is a human being!p

 

[skinjo9]

Well said shelter. Glad that you have a more positive outlook on life now.
Your earlier comment of not having much to look forward too troubled me and it is not true.
you are obviously a well balanced and intelligent guy, not wishing to sound patronising, you have so much to look forward to, I too have found a lot of my hetro friends were very homophobic until I rammed the facts down there throats so to speak, now they truly accept me for me and feel very bad about their previous un educated view. After all, that’s what is important, that the world becomes more educated that we are really no different to anybody else, just prefer men not woman, and that is nobody else' business.
After all we are not interested in what hetros get up to in sex so why are they interested in a warped view of us.I have a lot of gay friends too and I find at the parties i have that everybody, straight and gay get on very well with each other and Pinklee1 made a very good and true point; the world would be a worse place without our rich input to society.
Inho has a great point about the value of the pink pound here in the uk, and throughout the world, and thank Steven Hawkins(god):rofl: that the outdated Thatcherism here in the uk re clause 28 etc has now gone. Take care skinjo:cheers

 

[gb2000ie]

Well, no. Baruch Spinoza was the jewish philosopher from Amsterdam and one of the most hated thinkers in european history, equally hated by both jews and christians, both protestants and catholics - this very meek and mild man was for more than a hundred years more hated than the devil. Newton, mind you, was in many respects a very,very,very ordinary anglican christian and newtonian physics was preached in the big churches in London in the early 18th century. Newton described a universe constructed by the good Lord allmighty and so perfectly well understood by the good Lords favourite matematician, the equally good sir Isaac.

......

What's your point? Who believes in what God, or who hates who has no bearing what so ever on the factuality of their theories.

We live in an actually universe that has actual laws that govern it, which we can test in a repeatable and systematic way we call science.

For there to be no free will you need a deterministic universe. Science has demonstrated through repeatable, verifiable experiment, that we do not. (Specifically The uncertainty principle: http://refhide.com/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle and the Bell Inequalities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments).

Our minds exist in our bodies which exist in our universe. Any philosophy which doesn't take reality into account is just mental masturbation. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, but, it is a very long way from a fact.

All I said was that you can't present philosophy as fact. It is the ultimate hypothesis.

B.

 

[dargelos]

It's hard to find a point of entry to this topic now that the bar has been raised so high. All that stupendous expending of brainpower and still the question wont let us have an answer. It's like SETI, search for extraterrestial intelligence, no matter how many computers they network to power the search, ET still hasn't been found.
So I don't think I will find anything out but let's have some fun with the question.
To go right back to the begining, god created man in his own image. I know that is true because the bible says so and everything in the bible is true. It follows that my queerness is something that has been passed down to me from god, where else could it have come from. What about the straights then, don't they get their hettiness from god in the same way. That must also be true.
This god fella dosen't sound all that straight, has he ever had a girlfriend, I don't think so. Does he watch football on tv every night with a can of beer in his hand like a proper man?. And don't you think that at his age, which must be over a million years old, he should have found a wife by now? 'Oh but I'm celibate for religious reasons' That's what they all say.
In GH (gods heaven as opposed to gay heaven) people live for ever so there is no need to breed. In a place like that being gay and thus not being a breeder would be a positve advantage. When god made Earth he worked out that the earthpeople wouldn't live for ever like they did in heaven, they die and so need regular replacements. That's why hetrosexuality had to be invented, an unfortunate necessity for breeding purposes.
Since the lord has infinite wisdom, he made sure there was still a healthy mix of other sexualities as well, to keep the quality up.
I think he got the balance about right and it's all worked out rather well.

 

[tonka]

You boys make my head spin.

People exist. Gay people exist.
For that, I am really, really thankful.

 

[theseeker]

Does he watch football on tv every night with a can of beer in his hand like a proper man?

I don't watch football, neither do I like beers. Does that not make me a proper man anymore? :rofl:

I think, dargelos, that searches like what SETI does is just a matter of time. There's billions of galaxies out in the (seen) universe, and within them, billions of star systems each. It's a mathematical possibility that they exist, but to find such intelligent lifeforms would be like searching for a few needles in a haystack the size of all of the world's oceans put together (till now we can't even find MH370 ffs!), only that these needles may change positions and shape/size over time (or even that they might have already appeared, but we're actually looking at the past when they weren't there!).

And, perhaps this god fella you mentioned could be autosexual? We've never heard of anyone else like him (at least in the bible), and they did say we were created in his image!

 

[dargelos]

I trust, tonka, that your head spun in a good way, like a sip of whiskey and a puff of weed way, not in a 'oh no a migraine coming on' sort of way.

 

[Otage]

Hoping not to sound offensive or bigoted or whatever, but has anyone of you ever thought of why homosexuality (or other forms of non-heterosexuality in that matter) exists? I mean, the reason behind heterosexuality is a pretty textbook-type answer: the procreation of a species. But is there a biological or evolutionary reason behind homosexuality and other forms of sexuality?

This is the question I've always wanted to ask, because to be honest, I just find it unfair that some people, good people, like us have to struggle through an issue like this, while many others never ever had to worry about it.

Stop wondering what or why you are, instead start being who you are, expressing yourself, getting to be the best you that you can. Why does it exists? Isn't it enough that it exists? Like people have listed "why does (somenthing) exists" etc. Because they exists, we as a human give them meaning, we give the meaning even to rocks, origin, cause we are the only species cabable of that kinda thinking.

And is homosexuality ok? Is it good? You want naturalistic truth about moral broblem? You will then bumb into naturalistic fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

 

[theseeker]

Stop wondering what or why you are, instead start being who you are, expressing yourself, getting to be the best you that you can. Why does it exists? Isn't it enough that it exists? Like people have listed "why does (somenthing) exists" etc. Because they exists, we as a human give them meaning, we give the meaning even to rocks, origin, cause we are the only species cabable of that kinda thinking.

But isn't that what science is all about? The unfaltering curiosity of everything around us? Why does the rain fall from the sky? Why do the tides go in and out? Where do we come from? If we take everything as is, then we will never be able to improve. I know when I started this topic I had some emotional element behind it, but I think the question still applies. Just because we may accept who we are or be comfortable with our environment doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to be question why we and the world around us exist.

But I concur with the second statement. There isn't any "right" or "wrong" in nature or science, and this moralistic value only comes about when society decide to assign values to everything. Does that mean they shouldn't? I don't think so. But things would be so much better if they hadn't assigned moral values to certain subjects, like sexuality for that matter.

 

[garth33]

But isn't that what science is all about? The unfaltering curiosity of everything around us? Why does the rain fall from the sky? Why do the tides go in and out? Where do we come from? If we take everything as is, then we will never be able to improve. I know when I started this topic I had some emotional element behind it, but I think the question still applies. Just because we may accept who we are or be comfortable with our environment doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to be question why we and the world around us exist.

But I concur with the second statement. There isn't any "right" or "wrong" in nature or science, and this moralistic value only comes about when society decide to assign values to everything. Does that mean they shouldn't? I don't think so. But things would be so much better if they hadn't assigned moral values to certain subjects, like sexuality for that matter.

keep asking questions seeker - that's what life is all about! All I know is certain things turned me on from a very young age. I didn't choose them - they were wired into my brain and body from the start. I made decisions throughout my life that embraced or shunned those desires for various reasons but i never questioned why they interested me - i just considered it being "me". We're all individuals on this planet...and the cool thing is we learn more about each other all the time being in touch in a place like this!:big hug: It's how we will make the next step into the future!

peace buddies,
G33

 

[orixa]

It's not one single gene that can be "discovered" or eradicated, that much I know.