WikiLeaks founder Assange the center of worldwide attention

[diklik]

Bradley Manning should be released. The article I posted includes a long passage that talks about the fact that if he had committed war crimes instead of leaking evidence of them, he would not be in jail right now

Ritsuka, I doubt that you and I will agree on much that involves Bradley Manning. I fully admit that the USA is out of control, and than crimes against humanity are being committed. But anyone who joins the military knows exactly what is required of them in terms of secrecy. They swear several oaths and sign numerous doents. If someone breaks their word in that, the consequences are known to them as well, in advance. For me it's as much about keeping one's word as anything else. If Manning can so easily decide to reveal what he has, perhaps someone else will decide to reveal very critical stuff that endangers the lives of innocent civilians in the USA. It's the same type of security breach.

So Manning, who did this out of conscience is suffering for it, more's the sadness that what he revealed does point out terrible doings that are criminal in themselves. I am unhappy that Manning suffers while others in command are free, and I am very pissed that such stuff even goes on; but in the same breath I would want anyone who breaches his oath of secrecy to endure the consequences of that act. It's impossible to cleave a line between the intent to reveal secrets that embarrass without endangerment of innocents, and the same revelatory action that does actual harm.

 

[ritsuka]

I don't agree that the US has any moral ground, or any right to prosecute someone like Bradley Manning when they oversee a criminal syndicate themselves; rather, the wider world has an obligation to free him on account of the inestimable service he has done for those of us who don't reside among the Washington elite. I've said this before; the US has no right to keep their crimes a secret; if lives are endangered, it is because of the violent, illegal acts committed by the US government in the first place, and therefore the blame would rest on those at the top and the consequences deserved.

I'm very glad that some people don't allow themselves to remain trapped inside sick, authoritarian situations when wrongs are being committed; we've seen this in Libya and Egypt when some members of the armed forces have decided to refuse orders to massacre the population. Bradley Manning it seems saw that he was tricked and exploited by some contract he signed at 18, so he decided to do something about it. I guess we don't agree on that, though.

 

[diklik]

if lives are endangered, it is because of the violent, illegal acts committed by the US government in the first place, and therefore the blame would rest on those at the top and the consequences deserved.

With respect, Ritsuka, if your innocent life and those of your family were endangered due to someone's "crisis of conscience" forcing them to reveal secrets that put you at risk, I daresay you'd feel differently. It's easy to tell each other here in GH that the blame must rest at the top and the consequences be deserved. Great. If that only affected the decision makers, I am all for immediate disclosure of anything and everything. Sadly, it has potential lethality for the man in the street, quietly going about his business and trying to live his life peaceably.

If there was a way to limit what could be revealed, that would be different. But one man in one situation may disclose embarrassing but harmless (to the general population) material -- and another man may totally blow homeland defenses out of the water. My preference is for nobody to feel free to reveal whatever they like, without severe and immediate consequences. If that means that Manning is in jail, than so be it. He knew the law and the sanctions for its breach before he acted. I respect what he did, and perhaps he must remain (for the time being) as a martyr to his own conscience. I would not ever accept him deciding for me and my family our potential as co-martyrs to his cause. I would prefer to see the USA detain him in prison as a legal consequence of his actions untiul the matter is fully sorted out, but nothing more than that - no torture or unusual treatment.

I do get it, and agree that the USA has committed crimes that need to be addressed on the world stage. But allowing the very real probability of harm coming to over 300 million citizens is potential mass murder caused by unauthorized and unwarranted disclosure of critical security into. No way can I accept any shadow of that.

 

[jeansGuyOZ]

I just decided for the first time to visit this thread, and it looks now as if it has morphed into a discussion about this Bradley Manning person.

Getting back to the topic at hand: " WikiLeaks founder Assange the center of worldwide attention", I get the impression that's exactly what he wants. I have no way of knowing whether or not he is guilty of this rape charge, but if Sweden has legitimate reason to press charges, I see no reason why he should have any immunity from extradition. It should be noted that some of the others who were originally involved in setting up Wikileaks are unhappy with the way Assange has conducted himself.

 

[diklik]

. I have no way of knowing whether or not he is guilty of this rape charge, but if Sweden has legitimate reason to press charges, I see no reason why he should have any immunity from extradition. It should be noted that some of the others who were originally involved in setting up Wikileaks are unhappy with the way Assange has conducted himself.

In the general haste to uphold and support the apparent underdog, it is often easy to overlook actual criminal malfeasance. The longer the delay in getting Assange before a judge and jury to answer the charges, the longer that injustice to all (Assange included) is perpetrated. It's far too easy to cry "conspiracy by big governnment" as reason to turn anyone loose. I am all for stringent vetting of all the charges and evidence produced, to ensure a fair and just trial. Once done, let the law deal with the accused, or absolve him completely and we can go back to our humdrum lives.

 

[ritsuka]

Jeansguy, Bradley Manning was, allegedly, the person who delivered the Afghan war logs, Cablegate, Collateral murder and other files to Wikileaks, so I think he is quite on-topic here. It just so happens that the mainstream media hasn't focused very much on him. And publications like the Guardian and New York Times who have made a lot of money off of publishing the WL releases are only too happy to pay "former associates" of Wikileaks to write smear articles. Wikileaks has been around for over four years, with many notable achievements before they happened to end up with these files concerning the US.

Sweden's pursual of Julian Assange has been marred by irregularities from the beginning. He was in regular contact with the Swedish government and asked to be interviewed about the investigation before leaving; they refused, and it was only after he had to leave for his work that they decided to put out a highly unusual arrest warrant (people aren't extradited for this level of charges; but I guess a special immunity shouldn't be granted for him not to be extradited on account of unpaid parking tickets either?) as well as a tabloid-style leak to the press by the prosecution. It is a political witchunt, with possibly much bigger consequences for Julian than just the result of his secret, closed trial in Sweden may be.


Diklik, since you have nothing to back up the views in your argument against me other than war on terror hysteria and american exceptionalism, I'll leave you to it. The "secrets" you're afraid of being released, as well as the "enemies" who could get them only exist in science fiction.

 

[diklik]

Diklik, since you have nothing to back up the views in your argument against me other than war on terror hysteria and american exceptionalism, I'll leave you to it. The "secrets" you're afraid of being released, as well as the "enemies" who could get them only exist in science fiction.

Thanks for including me in the edit, Ritsuka. I was deathly afraid of my secret not being released and that you had forgotten me.

 

[jeansGuyOZ]

I guess a special immunity shouldn't be granted for him not to be extradited on account of unpaid parking tickets either?)

Funny you should say that:

When I was in the U.S. in 1980, I was given a fine ticket for illegally hitch-hiking on a California freeway. This happened just a few days before my flight home.
When I got back home, I made sure to write a cheque for the amount and send it by registered mail. I had no desire to return to the U.S. twenty years later and step off the plane to find myself under arrest for failure to settle this account!

 

[ritsuka]

Funny you should say that:

When I was in the U.S. in 1980, I was given a fine ticket for illegally hitch-hiking on a California freeway. This happened just a few days before my flight home.
When I got back home, I made sure to write a cheque for the amount and send it by registered mail. I had no desire to return to the U.S. twenty years later and step off the plane to find myself under arrest for failure to settle this account!

That was likely a smart move--debt collection is big business in the US, and there is a rise in international collection agencies (though that is for debts of a higher amount, of course.)

 

[alexfot55]

I think he confirmed many of the suspicions most of us had about
international relations.I was not surprised but rather satisfied that my estimations were more or less true.