Enough of the Islamophobia already

[gb2000ie]

It saddens me no end to see so many people making gross generalisations about Muslims on this board. You see "Muslims are X" and "Muslims are Y" all over the place, and X and Y are never positive attributes.

We know it's wrong to assume all gay people are the same, and say things like "Gays are promiscuous" or what not. We know it's wrong to talk about blacks as all being the same. We know it's wrong to talk about women all being the same.

Why then, when we all understand that gross generalisations are wrong and dangerous, are so many people here (here of all places!!!) happy to do it about the second largest religion on this planet?

The impression I get is that those involved in this kind of sweeping generalisation seem to think that the ruling elite in the Middle East represent all of the 1.6 BILLION Muslims on this planet.

Firstly, Muslims live in almost every country in the world. Like Christians, and Jews, and Hindus and, well, all religions, Islam is a loose collection of different 'churches' that all have different beliefs, ranging from fundamentalist to liberal.

We get that the Bible Belt does not represent all Christians, but we don't seem to get that the Middle East does not represent all Muslims.

How many people who regularly go on about "Muslims X" and "Muslims Y" have any idea where most of the Muslims in the world live? Hint - not the middle east! 66% of Muslims live in south-east-Asia. The most populous majority Muslim country is in the world is the secular nation of Indonesia, which prides itself on tolerance of other religions and cultures, and has an official state motto which translates to English as "Unity in Diversity". They have a secular government, and a secular judiciary.

Perhaps we can stop pretending ISIS, the royal family of Saudi, and the theocracy of Iran are typical of Muslims. They are a minority.

The problem is that racists in the western establishment find it very useful to distort reality to make people scared, and hence get them to vote for extremists like themselves. By propagating dangerous generalisations, you are doing the work of racists and bigots.

To anyone who read to here, thank your for your time and attention!

B.

P.S.
I am an agnostic, so this is not about me being pro-religion, or a Muslim myself, but about me hating to see lies and half-truths used to distort people into monsters. History teaches us where that road goes, and those are not nice places to end up!

 

[W!nston]

Name one Islamic government that supports Gay Rights. Name one Mosque that openly welcomes Gays. Name one Islamic country with Gay Pride parades.

Why single out Islamophobia?

There is a lot of generalizations about America, Europe and The West in general going around in here too. The disrespect shown for America and other Western countries is appalling. I don't appreciate that one bit but I haven't started a thread about it. My father and his father and all those fathers before them worked themselves to death to build a better life for us. Blood, sweat and tears were shed to provide us the comforts we have. Sacrifice was the currency they used. I think it's pretty ballsy to belittle their hard work.

Go ahead and make some snide remarks about that. I don't really care. I laugh at the politically correct 'superior' hypocrites who sit in their comfortable homes and type on their expensive iMacs while sipping tea and eating scones.

There is a lot of Russophobia and Sinophobia too.

Islamophobia? Please...

 

[gb2000ie]

Name one Islamic government that supports Gay Rights.

At the moment, very few countries of any religion actively support gay rights.

Name one Mosque that openly welcomes Gays.

LITERALLY the first hit on Google - it's not like it was hard to find at all: http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29279879

Name one Islamic country with Gay Pride parades.

Turkey

Why single out Islamophobia?

Because it's the only gross generalisation that seems to be tolerated on this board. Not really much point in starting a thread about something that doesn't happen is there!

There is a lot of generalizations about America, Europe and The West in general going around in here too. The disrespect shown for America and other Western countries is appalling. I don't appreciate that one bit but I haven't started a thread about it. My father and his father and all those fathers before them worked themselves to death to build a better life for us. Blood, sweat and tears were shed to provide us the comforts we have. Sacrifice was the currency they used. I think it's pretty ballsy to belittle their hard work.

Well, I don't think it's been to the same level as the Muslim-bashing, but I have also spoken out against those kinds of generalisations. You'll regularly see me correcting people who confuse the actions of a government with the opinions of all the people in a nation.

Also, "but others are doing something wrong too" is not really much of a defence for anything.

Go ahead and make some snide remarks about that. I don't really care. I laugh at the politically correct 'superior' hypocrites who sit in their comfortable homes and type on their expensive iMacs while sipping tea and eating scones.

As it happens, I do like scones, but I'm not fond of tea.

I'm not interested in making snide remarks. I'm tying to have a serious conversation about serious issues. 'othering' people is deeply dangerous, and makes death and destruction unavoidable.

I think everyone here agrees ISIS is dangerous bunch who need to be stopped. Does pretending all Muslims are like ISIS help, or hinder, the defeat of ISIS? I'd make the argument it hinders it A LOT!

ISIS are trying to convince ordinary good Muslims that the entire west is on a crusade against them, and that their only choice is to join ISIS. Islamophobia is playing right into ISIS's hands.

Also, if you want to prevent domestic terror attacks, you need the help of the people most likely to know something is a foot before it's to late - average ordinary good Muslims. If you make it clear to them they are not welcome in your society, that they are outside, they will fear the authorities, rather than reporting their concerns.

Treating all Muslims like the enemy is the kind of dangerous game that risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy.

There is a lot of Russophobia and Sinophobia too.

Islamophobia? Please...

I have seen people rightly criticise PUTIN, and Putin's regime, but I have not seen people assume Putin and his cronies speaks for all Russians.

Your final snide comment does you a disservice.

B.

 

[skyward]

I came across a video randomly on YT that featured a young muslim man giving a present to his father...

For some reason it left a strong impression on me.

I believe in a shared humanity, and we nearly always have more in common that we have differences. Problem is sometimes we lose sight of that fact.

Anyway here is the video of the young muslim man & his father...

 

[Stonecold]

gb2000ie I agree with you that no one group should be lumped together, I however do not agree with you that countries do not have a right to defend their cultures and ways of life. Millions of Americans and Western Europeans have died fighting to keep their freedoms and way of life. I think they have earned the right to their way of life. I agree it is sad about the plight of Syrians but it is no more sad then the millions of people that died at the hands of the Nazi.Why are young Syrian men to be given a free pass to a new life when other people's young men stayed and fought for their freedoms.

 

[gb2000ie]

gb2000ie I agree with you that no one group should be lumped together, I however do not agree with you that countries do not have a right to defend their cultures and ways of life.

How can you disagree with something I did not say?

Millions of Americans and Western Europeans have died fighting to keep their freedoms and way of life. I think they have earned the right to their way of life.

Who, exactly, has argued against that? Certainly not me.

I agree it is sad about the plight of Syrians but it is no more sad then the millions of people that died at the hands of the Nazi.

K - have many people here been arguing that refugees from Nazi Germany should not have been accepted into the UK and America back in the 40s?

Why are young Syrian men to be given a free pass to a new life when other people's young men stayed and fought for their freedoms.

We already have a thread about this, and this is not that thread!

I intentionally started this as a separate thread to avoid de-railing the refugee thread. Please show the same respect to this thread.

B.

 

[dargelos]

There is only so much that anyone can base on their own experience but here goes, not for the first time. We (my husband and I) live in the most multicultural part of the city. There are lots of Muslims in this street. They have no problem with us or the other gay couple in the street. There is less crime, less dirt, here than in the all "traditional English" parts. We used to live in an all white, all christian, area and it was not nice. All the Muslims round here are sweet people, they are not interested in our private life anymore than we are interested in theirs. The local mosque does not make bombs, it collects food for the starving. When they work hard their sweat is the same colour as mine. When they get cut their blood is the same colour as mine.
Do I want to go live in a Middle Eastern country? Of course I dont. Most have a dreadful human rights record. I do not condone any of those nasty governments. This is about the people, not where they've come from.

 

[W!nston]

Ha-ha! Well, you did name a mosque and a Gay Pride parade! You got me there. Of course those are the exceptions and not the rule.

I haven't seen any statistics that show that a majority of Muslims support Gay Equality, yet, but now that I say that you will surely 'Google' some, lol, but I will take them with a grain of salt.

I have seen Muslim clerics say horrible things about and do horrible things to Gays.

How many nations with an Islamic government are there in the world? Can you 'Google' that too? Of that number how many have approved legalizing Gay Marriage as many Western nations have ... even predominantly Catholic Ireland recently voted to legalize it.

Look, I know there are a lot of good people who are Muslims. But I still think the majority of Muslims follow their religious leaders decrees blindly. That ain't a good thing when you listen to their leaders decrees.

I don't trust the leaders of Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew or Islam religions. But of those I fear the Islamic nut jobs the most.

 

[gb2000ie]

Question - how did we get gay rights accepted into Christian countries? By convincing priests and ministers to change their minds? By crusading against Christianity? Nope!

By convincing ordinary people that we're ordinary people too. It was a bottom-up thing, not a top-down thing.

Even now, when so much of the west has gay rights, the majority of Christian church leaders are still against it, and the majority of Christian churches are still actively campaigning against it.

The Imams will be the last to change, just like the Bishops will be.

Should we judge all Christians by what their Bishops say? Or what the Bible says? PROVABLY not - or Ireland would not have voted the way it did.

Another important point is that all religions pick and choose which bits of their holy books to ignore (for a start, they are all full of contradictions, so you have no choice). When ever someone says that Muslims are X because the Koran says Y, I think how stupid it would be to say all Christians must stone adulterers, because they believe in the Bible, and the Bible says you should.

Just like every Christian is an ala-carte Christian to a greater or lesser extent, so are all Jews, and all Hindus, and, all Muslims.

B.

 

[W!nston]

Everything you said has merit. There are countries in Africa where American Christian groups have driven the locals into Gay Hysteria and caused a lot of damage to the Gay locals. I've read they exported their hatred to Africa because the market in America had dried up.

Religious nutjobs exist in every religion even Budhism and Hinduism.

But I still believe there is great danger for The West coming from one particular religion.

 

[gb2000ie]

But I still believe there is great danger for The West coming from one particular religion.

I almost agree, but with a subtle but important distinction - I think the danger comes from a sub-set of extremists within that religion, and not the religion as a whole.


B.

 

[DBOL777]

I will remind members that this forum does not sanction anyone attacking anyone or anything on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion...so please conduct any discussion of these topics in a respectful manner...

Robbie

 

[Stonecold]

gb2000ie said

We already have a thread about this, and this is not that thread!

I intentionally started this as a separate thread to avoid de-railing the refugee thread. Please show the same respect to this thread.

I put this here because I think you think (and I may be wrong and if I am I am sorry,) that because some countries do not want to accept hundreds of thousands of Syrians that it is because of Islamophobia, I have heard Germany is kicking poor Germans and seniors out of public housing to make room for Syrians and if these people are angry it doesn't make them Islamophobic.
source on kicking out poor and senior Germans

http://shoebat.com/2015/09/03/christian-population-replacement-germany-has-begun-evicting-its-poor-and-elderly-citizens-to-make-room-for-hundreds-of-thousands-of-illegal-alien-muslims/

 

[gb2000ie]

I put this here because I think you think (and I may be wrong and if I am I am sorry,) that because some countries do not want to accept hundreds of thousands of Syrians that it is because of Islamophobia

No, I started the thread because a number of threads have contained sweeping generalisations about Muslims over the past few months. One of those threads was indeed the refugee one, but this thread is NOT about that particular crisis.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that everyone who is against refugees is Islamophobic, and I never have. My opening post says what I meant. It should be taken at face value.

The issue I am raising here is people making sweeping generalisations about a few billion people who happen to share a religion, as if that's an OK thing to do. I very strongly believe it's not, and that it's important to rebut that kind of thing when it happens.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Folks - can we please not re-do the refugee thread again.

I went out of my way to start a new thread so the two would not get conflated.

The moderators have closed the refugee thread down because it got out of hand, can we please not let that happen here.

B.

 

[Stonecold]

gb2000ie

The issue I am raising here is people making sweeping generalisations about a few billion people who happen to share a religion, as if that's an OK thing to do. I very strongly believe it's not, and that it's important to rebut that kind of thing when it happens.

I agree with you, that is wrong.

 

[takeitall456]

Folks - can we please not re-do the refugee thread again.

I went out of my way to start a new thread so the two would not get conflated.

The moderators have closed the refugee thread down because it got out of hand, can we please not let that happen here.

B.

Let's suggest everyone reads carefully gb2000ie's warning. He's totally right.

 

[skyward]

Here is a good definition of islamophobia:

Islamophobia is a contrived fear or prejudice fomented by the existing Eurocentric and Orientalist global power structure. It is directed at a perceived or real Muslim threat through the maintenance and extension of existing disparities in economic, political, social and cultural relations, while rationalizing the necessity to deploy violence as a tool to achieve "civilizational rehab" of the target communities (Muslim or otherwise). Islamophobia reintroduces and reaffirms a global racial structure through which resource distribution disparities are maintained and extended.

Anon URL

If you want to better understand islamophobia, in terms of its modern historical context, see the excellent doentary series "The Power of Nightmares", by Adam Curtis:

The Power of Nightmares on vimeo

I think that in relation to the migrant issue its for the best if we all take a break from that for a while. Sometimes when an issue is discussed in a public forum, it becomes less of a chat and more of debate... and views become artificially polarised. Sometimes it's better to chat away over PM in pairs or as a small group. This removes the 'audience' so there is less pressure to form strong arguments and counter-arguments.

GH should be less like this:

And more like this:

However, warm fuzzy thoughts aside, this is probably more like the reality...



:rofl:

 

[Shelter]

..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................I hope no one feels attacked by this post in his race, ethnicity or religion! I think this will fulfill the mainstream - or better the muzzle for opposing opinions.

Sorry again for disturbing your elitist circle.

 

[gb2000ie]

Sorry again for disturbing your elitist circle.

So not tarring a few billion people with the same brush is elitist is it?

Do you feel that way when people defend gays from the same kind of sweeping generalisations?

What you call 'elitism' I call having a bit of humanity, and avoiding a lot of hypocrisy.

B.