Enough of the Islamophobia already

[smallsleepyrascalcat]

@Stonecold: Shoebat is a fundemantal Christian, this article is nonsense. Nobody gets kicked out of his appartment to make place for refugees. Besides, what would it have to do with te topic of this thread? Except creating islamophobia?

 

[Shelter]

So not tarring a few billion people with the same brush is elitist is it?

Do you feel that way when people defend gays from the same kind of sweeping generalisations?

What you call 'elitism' I call having a bit of humanity, and avoiding a lot of hypocrisy.

B.

Wow! Great! Be happy with it!

 

[Stonecold]

.......................................................................................................................................................................


Shelter said

I hope no one feels attacked by this post in his race, ethnicity or religion! I think this will fulfill the mainstream - or better the muzzle for opposing opinions.

Sorry again for disturbing your elitist circle.

I agree with you and since I love GH I will let the Elite silence me and ignore these type of posts.

 

[tiogilito]

It saddens me no end to see so many people making gross generalisations about Muslims on this board. !

Sure, everybody is different and everybody deserves a chance. I do not blame Muslims for the religion they happen to be born into.

But the IDEOLOGY of Islam is a different story. It claims that Muslims are "the best of of people" and everybody else are the "worst of animals". Not my words, the Qur'an. Shariah demands the killing of gay people, and allowed domestic rape of women as well are the beating of wives. Also the Qur'an teaches that Jews are "apes and pigs" who must be killed.

And Islam commands that all religions must be forcibly subdued until Islam is the only religion left on the world. It was not for nothing that no lesser person than the leader of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, observed that "Islam is very similar to our ideology".

So sure, not all Muslims subscribe to all these ideas, but the thing is, Islam demands that they should. That is simply a fact. As a rather famous former Muslim, Ali Sina, said: A BAD Muslim tends to be a BETTER person morally.

We could also say that 99.9% KKK members do not burn black people on crosses. Does that make the IDEOLOGY more acceptable? And if I said I strongly dislike the KKK, does that mean I have a "phobia" too?

As to "islamophobia" that really is a term to SHUT UP a debate and to prevent people from finding out what Islam really is. A person who realises that Islam is essentially a totalitarian political ideology, started by a paedophile mass murderer and narcissist, because he bothers to study the facts, is mentally ill? Do you think I should get tablets from my doctor for this "phobia"?

So should we be tolerant to an ideology that wants to abolish all tolerance and freedom?

I have many Muslim friends, but that does not mean I have like their religion. I will invite them to eat at my home, but I will not buy halal meat as I know the surcharge for the label "halal" is at least in parts used to fund terrorism. So they will have to contend with fish or a vegetarian fare.

 

[skyward]

@tiogilito

Interesting that you mention the KKK. The KKK is a perversion of Christianity. It is an extreme faction. We cannot tar all Christians with the KKK brush. Similarly we cannot tar all Muslims because of extreme factions and groups that only constitute a tiny fraction of Islam as a whole.

As another example tiny groups and factions (Eco-terrorism) within the ecological movement have committed extreme acts. Does this mean we tar everyone, all the scientists etc with the same brush -no, of course not!

You now focus on the word 'IDEOLOGY', putting it in big letters, twice.:rofl: You could look at the ideology of any complex social phenomenon and make a case against it. Ideas by their nature can mean different things to different people.

Vague terms like 'ideology' need to be used with caution. Sweeping generalisations, even if they are made tacitly, should be carefully avoided.

You talk about 'SS', Heinrich Himmler, KKK...

Now imagine someone being asked to comment on climate-change awareness... and they start rabbiting on about Heinrich Himmler and the SS, then say something vague about ideology alluding to eco-terrorism...... and then wrap it all up by saying 'buy hey I have friends with hybrid cars!'

How would that make them look? :thinking:

 

[tiogilito]

Yes KKK is a perversion of Christianity. In fact, you cannot find "white supremacist" teachings in Christianity, LOL Jesus was a JEW.


And I did not tar any Christians with with that, or any, brush, in fact I would see the KKK as positively un-Christian. What happened to "Treat others as you want to be treated", and "love your neighbour"?

As to my use of "ideology", if you ask a Muslim what Islam actually is, he would say "a complete way of life". It is not a religion in the conventional western sense. "Separation of church and state" is an alien concept in Islam. If you ever go to live in a Muslim country you will see the difference in every day life. Islam regulates everything down to which foot you may use to enter the toilet.

It is pretty much the only thing Himmler said I would agree with, when he pointed out the similarities between Islam and Nazism. Islam is totalitarian in nature. It claims that Muslims are superior to other people, and have a divine right to rule over them and exploit them. It also aims for world domination. It also hates gays and wants them dead. It also says there is only ONE "right" way to live. It also has a personality cult. It also forbids independent thought, free speech or democratic values.

All this is easily proven from authoritative texts by Muslims. So I would conclude that Islam is a totalitarian ideology with a religious varnish. It resembles Nazism and also rigid communism, as in North Korea for example.

Many Muslims claim that IS are not "Islamic" but you would be hard pressed to find anything they do for which Mohammed himself did not set an example.

But many Muslims have a rather unique way to deal with the fact that they have been born into such a horrible ideology: Carefully maintained ignorance of Islamic teachings. Most Muslims do not speak Arabic, let alone classical Arabic, and almost none have actually read the Qur'an. They can recite it, without understanding what it says. If an average Muslim were every to actually read that foul book, they would dump Islam at once. But they don't. Islam expressly forbids rational examination of the Qur'an and its sources.

Note also that to a Muslim the Qur'an is literally the word of God, not merely an inspired text as the bible is to almost all Christians. The Allah of the Qur'an is as much a psychopath as Mohammed was, saying about himself he "tortures whoever he likes" and the is the "best of deceivers". Allah actually creates most men to be eternally tortured in hell. Does that make sense to you? In fact, the more you study the text, the more you realise what is going on: Allah is Mohammed's glove puppet to control his people, and he is dressing him up in Jewish clothing one minute to get Jewish converts, Christian rags the next, and when most of these laughed at Mohammed, "Allah" ordered Muslims to fight them all until they surrender to Muslims. The "eternal guide for all mankind" contains details as to how Mohammed should deal with his wives when they are angry because he cheated on them, how to beat one's wives, and blatant factual errors: "Sperm originates from between the backbones and the ribs" we are told, by the all-knowing Allah.

The only miracle of Islam is that people really believe that crap. Now, tell me do people deserve "respect" or "special treatment" because they believe really dumb stuff?

Personally, sure, believe anything you like, believe the moon is made from cheese if you must, but don't let your beliefs "leak out" and impact on those who do not share your believes.

And if you think a prayer is only "valid" if you wash beforehand, say it at a certain time, in a certain way, with certain words, only in Arabic, even if you cannot understand it, may I not laugh at that? I mean if I told you my religion required me to wear a cactus up my rectum you would think me stark raving mad. So why do other people's mad beliefs deserve "respect"? Now, if my religion were to say I must behead all people with red hair, you woud insist I go to a mental hospital. But if 1 billion Muslims say that the rest of us are all vermin, specially the Jews who must be killed, then that deserves "respect". And those who find that repugnant suffer from a brand new mental illness called "islamophobia"?


And if you feel it necessary to curse all Jews and Christians 5 times a day in your "prayer", why may I not be offended by that?

Paerhaps some people may find this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfJ6FpabknY

 

[skyward]

Himmler said I would agree with

It's a really bad idea to build your argument based on what Himmler said. About any group of people.

 

[Shelter]

It's a really bad idea to build your argument based on what Himmler said. About any group of people.

This is the typical twist of literal sense. To take words out of context. You are a master in this awkward art.

 

[Shelter]

Yes KKK is a perversion of Christianity. In fact, you cannot find "white supremacist" teachings in Christianity, LOL Jesus was a JEW.


And I did not tar any Christians with with that, or any, brush, in fact I would see the KKK as positively un-Christian. What happened to "Treat others as you want to be treated", and "love your neighbour"?

As to my use of "ideology", if you ask a Muslim what Islam actually is, he would say "a complete way of life". It is not a religion in the conventional western sense. "Separation of church and state" is an alien concept in Islam. If you ever go to live in a Muslim country you will see the difference in every day life. Islam regulates everything down to which foot you may use to enter the toilet.

It is pretty much the only thing Himmler said I would agree with, when he pointed out the similarities between Islam and Nazism. Islam is totalitarian in nature. It claims that Muslims are superior to other people, and have a divine right to rule over them and exploit them. It also aims for world domination. It also hates gays and wants them dead. It also says there is only ONE "right" way to live. It also has a personality cult. It also forbids independent thought, free speech or democratic values.

All this is easily proven from authoritative texts by Muslims. So I would conclude that Islam is a totalitarian ideology with a religious varnish. It resembles Nazism and also rigid communism, as in North Korea for example.

Many Muslims claim that IS are not "Islamic" but you would be hard pressed to find anything they do for which Mohammed himself did not set an example.

But many Muslims have a rather unique way to deal with the fact that they have been born into such a horrible ideology: Carefully maintained ignorance of Islamic teachings. Most Muslims do not speak Arabic, let alone classical Arabic, and almost none have actually read the Qur'an. They can recite it, without understanding what it says. If an average Muslim were every to actually read that foul book, they would dump Islam at once. But they don't. Islam expressly forbids rational examination of the Qur'an and its sources.

Note also that to a Muslim the Qur'an is literally the word of God, not merely an inspired text as the bible is to almost all Christians. The Allah of the Qur'an is as much a psychopath as Mohammed was, saying about himself he "tortures whoever he likes" and the is the "best of deceivers". Allah actually creates most men to be eternally tortured in hell. Does that make sense to you? In fact, the more you study the text, the more you realise what is going on: Allah is Mohammed's glove puppet to control his people, and he is dressing him up in Jewish clothing one minute to get Jewish converts, Christian rags the next, and when most of these laughed at Mohammed, "Allah" ordered Muslims to fight them all until they surrender to Muslims. The "eternal guide for all mankind" contains details as to how Mohammed should deal with his wives when they are angry because he cheated on them, how to beat one's wives, and blatant factual errors: "Sperm originates from between the backbones and the ribs" we are told, by the all-knowing Allah.

The only miracle of Islam is that people really believe that crap. Now, tell me do people deserve "respect" or "special treatment" because they believe really dumb stuff?

Personally, sure, believe anything you like, believe the moon is made from cheese if you must, but don't let your beliefs "leak out" and impact on those who do not share your believes.

And if you think a prayer is only "valid" if you wash beforehand, say it at a certain time, in a certain way, with certain words, only in Arabic, even if you cannot understand it, may I not laugh at that? I mean if I told you my religion required me to wear a cactus up my rectum you would think me stark raving mad. So why do other people's mad beliefs deserve "respect"? Now, if my religion were to say I must behead all people with red hair, you woud insist I go to a mental hospital. But if 1 billion Muslims say that the rest of us are all vermin, specially the Jews who must be killed, then that deserves "respect". And those who find that repugnant suffer from a brand new mental illness called "islamophobia"?


And if you feel it necessary to curse all Jews and Christians 5 times a day in your "prayer", why may I not be offended by that?

Paerhaps some people may find this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfJ6FpabknY

You are really very brave to fight here against these ignoramuses. But please spare your strength. Here it is really pointless to say anything. They don't want to hear - but I honestly wish them, that someday they will feel how their "friends" will act.

 

[tiogilito]

It's a really bad idea to build your argument based on what Himmler said. About any group of people.

I did not build what said on Himmler but on the actual teachings of the Qur'an. It just so happened Himmler noticed certain similarities between Islam and his own views. Well, even a monstrous man like Himmler is not always wrong on everything just because who he is. An honest investigation looks at the merits of what has been said irrespectively who said it.

A less than honest way of arguing is twisting what someone says to pretend he is some kind of Nazi.... hang on... just as you just did. If you want to quote something at the very least quote the whole sentence, not just the part that suits your purpose.

 

[skyward]

If you want to quote something at the very least quote the whole sentence, not just the part that suits your purpose.

Each

icon links directly to a full post, so there is no question of quoting out of context.

Nothing you have said so far would cause me to see merit in Himmler's position. I would be very skeptical of anything such a person would claim.

@Shelter
I don't think name-calling helps any discussion or debate. Do you have any constructive points of your own to make?

 

[tiogilito]

Each

icon links directly to a full post, so there is no question of quoting out of context.

Nothing you have said so far would cause me to see merit in Himmler's position. I would be very skeptical of anything such a person would claim.

@Shelter
I don't think name-calling helps any discussion or debate. Do you have any constructive points of your own to make?

OK, I am sorry to say, I do not accept that. My post is there for people to read and there is the little link button, fine, but most people, when reading though a thread assume that the verbatim quote you write actually represents the comment made fairly, as your way of quoting does not, not that occasion.

Neither one of us are any fan of Himmler, but even a mass murderer can just occasionally have a valid point to make.

That is the difference between you and me: I am only interested is WHAT is said not really who said it.

So are there similarities between Islam and ideologies such as radical fascisn or radical communism? Well, I mentioned some:

personality cults
"Us and THEM"
The individual is dispensable for the benefit of the ideology. (i.e. suicide bombers)
Discrimination and persecution of people who think differently of live a life style that is not approved
A claim to world domination
The description of some people as vermin and permanent enemy
The acceptability to spread the ideology with violence and deception

None of that would be disputed by any Muslim, so Himmler or not Himmler, it simply is a conclusion that forces itself on you if you look at it dispassionately.

Another way to describe Islam is a a meme:

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html

Please have a read to that article, it is by a Russian Psychologist, and rather insightful.

It also shows that in reality Muslims are the first VICTIMS of Islam.

 

[tiogilito]

Like...Turkey?

Turkey had Ataturk. He was very much against Islam having any influence on government, describing it a chain around the leg of his country. He also had a wonderful sense of humour: when announced that "From today any Turkish woman may wear whatever she wants, only a prostitute must cover up with a hijab.", the hijab vanished over night.

Today many women in Turkey are back in their cages, as the hijab is returning. Islam is on the rise again. Erdogan has links to the Muslim brotherhood and he allows the supply lines for ISIS to run freely through his country. Did you know that Christians may not be in the army in Turkey or hold government posts? The gay related laws in Turkey are the same as they were under Ataturk, and no progress has been made since. It is entirely legal in Turkey to discriminate in employment on the grounds of sexual orientation, for example.It is also illegal in Turkey for a Christian to try to convert a Muslim, but not the other way round. Also, Roman Catholicism or any Christian protestant group are not even recognised as a religion in Turkey.

You can see the effects of Islam in any Muslim majority country, in a great many ways, in some places more than in others, but the influence in never benign.

Then you are confusing MUSLIMS with Islam. What Muslims make of Islam and to what extent they follow it is of course quite varied. What it teaches, though, in entirely clear.

Again, no. This would just prove that those interpretations exist.

"Kill the infidel wherever you find him", says the Qur'an. "Smite their necks". Not really a lot of room for interpretation.... It says what it says. In fact the Qur'an mentions "Jews" in a pejorative way more times than "Mein Kampf", despite of the fact that is is much shorter.

And your excuse that biblical texts have such passages to really does not help at all. For a start, the bible is seen as INSPIRED by God, i.e. as having human elements, and also simply accounts of events, which not examples to follow. To a Muslim the Qur'an is a guidance, an instruction given direct to him by Allah.

Somehow I see a lot less Christian terror attacks...and very few which actually cite Christianity as the reason for the attack. By contrast, there were 26974 terror attacks in the name of the "religion of peace" since 9/11 to date, an most killing other Muslims.

So we are not really comparing like with like.

About a third of the Qur'an is about people who do NOT follow Islam, how they are s, how you may not be friends with them, how you are allowed to deceive and lie to them, how they only exist to serve Muslims, and how they all ultimately are destined for hell.

I don't think we have any other religion on the planet teaching such things. Also, every religion on the planet has, in one form or another, the "golden rule": Treat others as you want to be treated. Islam as the only one of the major religions does not.

Finally, a word about your favourite logical fallacy: "tu quoque". This is arguing that something is OK because other people do it too (whether that is correct or not.)

So, suppose you stand in front of a judge, just before sentencing, after having been found guilty of downloading some porn contrary to copyright, and you say "tio gilito does it too". Do you thing you get off for free?

How exactly does anything any other religion does or does not do make Islam morally more acceptable?

Another fact is that all religions have to be respected the same way within the boundaries of each countries constitution.

Why does a religion have to respected? All religions are not equal. Some may reserve some degree of respect others deserve contempt. A religion that teaches hatred to all outsiders and also to women and gays does not deserve any respect.

Laughably you mention "constitutions"... the more Islamic a country becomes the less religious freedom there is, the less democracy, ga right or freedom of speech.

So should we all, in the name of tolerance, bow down to those who tell us loud and clear they want to demolish our own freedoms?

If you ask me Muslims should be treated in exactly the same way as shariah demands they should treat non-Muslims.

And usually when people resort to shouting "you talk bullshit" it means they do not have a sensible reply. To some people a rational discussion is not important, it is all about shutting up the dissenter. Well, if you end up living in a Muslim majority country, then you find out what our current "politically correct" classes seem to have forgotten, but what our ancestors knew for centuries.

When Islam was young, it had a Syrian critic: the monk now known as St John of Damascus. He wrote a commentary on the Qur'an. The way the new Muslim rulers dealt with this troublesome monk was to cut off his hands, so stop him writing. No dialogue, first comes the sword. That is Islam. Islam always dealt with dissent that way. Why do you think that leaving Islam carries the death penalty in shariah? Islam cannot defend itself other than with violence.

 

[gb2000ie]

Sure, everybody is different and everybody deserves a chance. I do not blame Muslims for the religion they happen to be born into.

But the IDEOLOGY of Islam is a different story. It claims that Muslims are "the best of of people" and everybody else are the "worst of animals". Not my words, the Qur'an. Shariah demands the killing of gay people, and allowed domestic rape of women as well are the beating of wives. Also the Qur'an teaches that Jews are "apes and pigs" who must be killed.

Have you ever read the bible? It's FULL of hateful shit just like this!!!

Why the double-standard. All the good stuff in the Qur'an gets ignored, and all the evil shit in the Bible gets ignored, while all the evil shit in the Qur'an is seen as undeniable evidence.

And Islam commands that all religions must be forcibly subdued until Islam is the only religion left on the world.

So, again, like Christianty, which says everyone needs to be converted, or the will go to hell for all eternity.

BTW, have you heard of the crusades? That is Christians following their holy book to erradicate other religions.

Why the double standard?

So sure, not all Muslims subscribe to all these ideas, but the thing is, Islam demands that they should. That is simply a fact.

Again, Christians are as ala-carte as bejeesus, but Muslims somehow are now given the same leway.

As a rather famous former Muslim, Ali Sina, said: A BAD Muslim tends to be a BETTER person morally.

Ditto for Christians.

A person who realises that Islam is essentially a totalitarian political ideology, started by a paedophile mass murderer and narcissist, because he bothers to study the facts, is mentally ill? Do you think I should get tablets from my doctor for this "phobia"?

What a pile of intentionally incendiart and hateful bile. Sickening.

So should we be tolerant to an ideology that wants to abolish all tolerance and freedom?

Just like Christianity.

but I will not buy halal meat as I know the surcharge for the label "halal" is at least in parts used to fund terrorism.

Ah - I see - a member of the tin-foil-hat brigade.

That explains your one-sided paper-tin parody of an understanding of Islam.

Your kind of intentional misrepresentation of Islam as if all Islam is extremist Islam is akin to saying all Christians are the Spanish Inquisition or the KKK.

It is, frankly, Islamophobic.

I could miss-represent Christianity in just the same way as you do Islam and make it look just as evil.

I'm above that kind of hate-mongering though.

B.

 

[Shelter]

@Shelter
I don't think name-calling helps any discussion or debate. Do you have any constructive points of your own to make?

Constructive points???? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Here are so many constructive points - but all these points don't assort to your leftist philosphy. Here we can discuss until the day the cows come home and we will not find any consensus. Believe what you want to believe and hope as much as you can that your beloved Moslems never will take the power here. In that case surely you would be one of the first who would loose his head. But once more, believe what you want to believe - so you will be happy in your dogmatic behaviour.

 

[slimjim]

Well when these threads get around to the issue of the selective choosing of religious dogmas that suit your argument whist ignoring those that don't I usually post a certain video clip. I'm a creature of habit so.....

 

[W!nston]

Sometimes the adrenaline in the heat of battle causes us to forget the rules of engagement. Let's keep it 'sweet like' so we can continue the discussion.

We all know the result of things getting personal or going too far off topic so let's keep our cool, guys. Please. That goes for everyone. Myself included, hehe. If we're not careful 'heads will roll' so to speak. At the very least 'threads will close'

 

[gb2000ie]

slimjim - I simply ADORE that clip - some of Sorkin's finest writting, and Sheen's fineset acting

It also makes a very important point through humour - all of our religious books are chock-full of stuff we pick and choose from. Add to that the fact that religious books have a strong propensity to contradict themselves, and what you have is more of an ink-blot test of the reader than anything else.

If you want to find hate in the Bible, it's right there! But, if you want to find goodness, it's there too.

Importantly for this thread, the same is true of the Qur'an. If you want to find evidence that Islam is the problem, and not extremists, you'll find all the calls to violence you want in that book. Not because it is any more vile than the Bible, but because it is just like the bible!

Good Christians ignore vast swaths of the bible each and every day, just like Google Muslims ignore vast swaths of the Qur'an each and every day. Christian Bishops and Popes do the same too, just like Muslim clerics.

IMO, selectively quoting the Qur'an only convinces people you are closed-minded and determined to hate.

The actual core of Islam is the pillars - those are the core principles that define what is most important to the religion, and they're no worse than the 10 commandments:
1) Faith (basically like the first three commandments)
2) you have to say your prayers
3) you have to help the poor (nothing this altruistic in the 10 commandments)
4) you have to fast
5) the able bodied should go on a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once

Like with Christianity, there are different sects of Islam, so there is some variation in the pillars, but this is what the majority of Muslims consider core to their religion.

I always thought it was a terrible shame that Christianity didn't include helping otheres in any of their commandments.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

"Separation of church and state" is an alien concept in Islam. If you ever go to live in a Muslim country you will see the difference in every day life. Islam regulates everything down to which foot you may use to enter the toilet.

The largest majority-Muslim nation in the world is secular (Indonesia). Clearly, you are confusing the small percentage of Muslims who live in the Middle east with all Muslims everywhere.

B.

 

[BadMan125]

I agree with the OP. There are openly LGBT Muslims out there. Just because they don't have pride parades don't excuse the Islamophobia posted here or elsewhere. Christian extremists are just as evil as Islamist extremists. Then again, you have to wonder if the extremists really believe in the religion they progress to love or do they use it to try to produce more evil? I'm going more with the latter.