Osama Bin Laden Is Dead ? NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gb2000ie]

How's that working for you now that his OBL followers have also admitted that he's dead?

Clearly they must be in on the conspiracy too

There is no such thing as conclusive evidence to conspiracy nut - just wait, some moron like Glen Beck will find some way to still doubt.

B.

 

[serlud]

Is there anyone who has said he died President Obama.X_X



Joking aside, I really hope that everything is so true as stated in the white house, a worm bin Laden as a murderess did not deserve to live.

 

[Stoic]

There was an interesting bit on TV that I heard the other day.

The Obama gov might never release any photo/video of that incident but surely in about 10 or 20 years from now somebody's going to write a book or do some private investigation about what really happened, and then we'll know.

 

[Jawja]

I never thought I'd see conspiracy theorists on THIS forum. How depressing.

 

[blueway]

I loved Wag The Dog... such an awesome movie.. kinda scary really... cuz uhm... the American Gov't could indeed fool the public with PR stunts... for all we know.. bin Laden wasn't even a real person.. he's probably just an actor who was the face of terrorism.. kinda like the dude in the Verizon commercials.. take the beard and turbin off and he probably looks like any other middle Eastern actor in Hollywood... but that's just my opinion. I'm probably wrong and Bin Laden was a real nutjob and if so... i'm glad he's dead.

 

[hawtsean]

democracy now! contains a lot of great perspectives on this.

We all have our opinions and beliefs, and the particular webzine quoted is just as good or as bad as any other political opinion site. With due respect to each and every person who has posted here, and all expressed opinions, we are all right and wrong at the same time - if we stack ourselves one against the other.

Terrorism is wrong, war is wrong, killing is wrong, lying is wrong.............but all these wrong actions are part of the human condition. No specific individual is to blame and no one specific action or system of belief is going to change the world. In a simplified sense, the world stage is much like the infamous feud of the Hatfield and McCoy families in the USA (Wikipedia has a good entry on this one). Until everyone decides to end the fighting, it will self-perpetuate. This thread is the proof of that. Just imagine if the posters were heads of state with military machines at their command - this could be WW3 in the making. It doesn't take violent disagreement and strife to create escalated aggression, just strong contention and the inspired belief in the righteousness of one's personal convictions.

However it should be noted that an ancient saying goes: "The sword of war is brought by the unanswered call for justice".

 

[ritsuka]

We all have our opinions and beliefs, and the particular webzine quoted is just as good or as bad as any other political opinion site.

It isn't a webzine, it's an independent broadcast media outlet, it doesn't only exist online and isn't an 'opinion website.' But I'm not sure why you direct that comment towards me, a lot of people have linked to articles or websites in here, I said the one I pointed too had some interesting alternative perspectives (and I was specifically pointing to their coverage the morning after OBL's alleged death), which aren't found on the mainstream networks. We do all have our opinions, some people think that mainstream news outlets which spearheaded the war on Iraq and tend to air almost exclusively neoconservative and pro-corporate views are super great and should be allowed to decide what is mainstream and define everyone they intentionally exclude as 'radicals.'

But I strongly disagree with the very passivist, moralist philosophy you express. I think individual people and belief systems most definitely are to blame; to say otherwise absolves the rich and powerful, corrupt war criminals who are making the policy that the rest of us are forced to live under. Militarism, imperialism, and violence are not inevitable, and I'm glad that some people out there actually care enough to work in order to stop them and make this a kinder, more gentle and sustainable world, instead of silencing themselves for fear of being seen as contentious.

 

[hawtsean]

It isn't a webzine, it's an independent broadcast media outlet, it doesn't only exist online and isn't an 'opinion website.' But I'm not sure why you direct that comment towards me

I stand corrected. As for quoting you in my remark, you were the last person in the thread to cite the media outlet named. As I said, we all have our opinions, we both have clearly stated those.

 

[himthere]

psst... nobody on this forum knows whether he's dead or not. in fact, none of us know for sure that he ever existed. obama DOES exist. [seen him.] we can believe him or not. to believe him might make us naive, and to not believe him might make us look like an angry nut. but let's please not take conjecture this seriously.

 

[gb2000ie]

psst... nobody on this forum knows whether he's dead or not. in fact, none of us know for sure that he ever existed. obama DOES exist. [seen him.] we can believe him or not. to believe him might make us naive, and to not believe him might make us look like an angry nut. but let's please not take conjecture this seriously.

This is all technically true - there is in fact almost nothing we can really know. I have never been to Paris, therefore, I don't know that it exists with 100% certainty. No one alive today has ever met Napoleon, so no one alive today knows he existed for 100% certain. The only thing we know for 100% sure is that we exist, and that we experience a world. After that, it's all uncertain.

So - it's impossible to live your life based on certainty. You HAVE to work off the preponderance of the evidence. What is the most likely given all the facts as best as you can ascertain them.

The corollary to this is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The more outlandish the theory, the more you need to back it up.

It is perfectly valid to call out people who make utterly preposterous claims based on not even the flimsiest evidence as being cranks. They are literally living in a fantasy world, and there is nothing more dangerous to our survival on this planet as a species than shared delusions. If we all stop thinking and start just believing we are doomed.

How many million lives did the FUD the tobacco industry spread about the dangers of smoking cost? How many lives will the FUD being thrown up to obscure reasoned discussions on climate cost us? How many lives did the lies about WMDs in Iraq cost? I could go on, but this is not some obscure philosophic question, this is very very real. Non-thinking and blind faith cost lives!

B.

 

[hawtsean]

Non-thinking and blind faith cost lives!

Absolutely true and I totally agree. However, we have allowed ourselves (at least much of the world has) to be manipulated into a blind corner where we are treated like mushrooms.....fed bullshit and kept in the dark.....regarding most of the critical issues facing humanity. Governments are not the benign father figure (or nanny-state) that they pretend to be.

If we stood up en masse and demanded full accountability and disclosure BY our elected officials (rather than a leak site after the fact), we would have a better shot at improving our collective existance.

 

[gb2000ie]

Absolutely true and I totally agree. However, we have allowed ourselves (at least much of the world has) to be manipulated into a blind corner where we are treated like mushrooms.....fed bullshit and kept in the dark.....regarding most of the critical issues facing humanity. Governments are not the benign father figure (or nanny-state) that they pretend to be.

If we stood up en masse and demanded full accountability and disclosure BY our elected officials (rather than a leak site after the fact), we would have a better shot at improving our collective existance.

I think there's two sides to this coin. Through apathy we have loosened the reigns on our elected officials, and they know it all too well and try to get away with as much as they can. This is a vicious circle, because the worse our politicians get, the less people bother to vote, allowing them to get even worse!

We have also willingly adopted the idea that news is entertainment, and reward cable news channels for telling us what we want to hear, rather than for giving us the facts.

We have also gotten so religious about politics that we can't stand to hear alternative views, to the point that it's often impossible to talk politics at work or with friends. If you can't stomach even hearing an alternative point of view, how are we going to get anywhere?

As much as I agree that we are all manured with BS daily, I also think we have decided we don't care as long as we have bread and circuses.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said that "Democarcy is a system which ensures we are governed no better than we deserve". If all our democratically elected politicians are shit - that's a reflection on society as much as anything else.

The same is true of the media - we steer them with out purchases - each time you buy a tabloid over a real news paper you incentivise the manure and punish real investigative journalism. Again - entertainment over facts, and again, it's a reflection on society, not the newspapers, they are just responding to where we are spending our cash!

B.