RIOT!

[gb2000ie]

No way to win, it seems.

It does indeed seem not.

What really disturbs me is that these are kids - has society fall apart so badly that parents have lost all control over thousands of kids? How badly do you have to raise your kids for them to think destruction is fun, and stealing is OK? Is it just that the education system is letting kids fall through the cracks, or is there more to it than that?

What should be happening is that there should be mass-arrests, but whether it's because of a lack of resources of a fear of being seen as too heavy-handed, the police are just chasing the looters away, rather than arresting them.

Behaviour like this can't be consequence-less in a civilised society - if you let it become so, then society breaks down. Justice needs to be universal, when people steal and vandalise they need to be punished, and when the police abuse their power they also need to be punished.

B.

 

[Squallmuzza]

It has all descended into pure hedonistic looting now. No political agenda or indeed any agenda other than stealing. I have friends whose entire street have been mobbed with fires just around the corner, my road has been broken into a couple of times, there are apparently fires starting in my town, it's insane.

While I don't condone the looting and vandalism, it must be said: riots begin for a reason.

Our dear Deputy Prime Minister said in April 2010: If the Tories are voted in, there will be riots, and here we are.

As for the low arrests, it's sheer lack of manpower. The break-ins are very clever. They break in, steal stuff, hide before the police show up and come back out as soon as they're gone. Those 2 things combined make it a nigh impossible mission to catch people.

 

[Squallmuzza]

That's how it looks just up the road from me. What was a Sony Distribution Centre.

A googles map representation of each event here: Google Riot Map

 

[gb2000ie]

While I don't condone the looting and vandalism, it must be said: riots begin for a reason.

I disagree - protests and demonstrations begin for a reason, what causes looting is an excuse!

The people out looting are not the ones passionate about a cause, they're the ones who enjoy violence, and who want to get themselves some cash or some goodies. These are the kind of s who leached off football as an excuse to 'have some fun'.

Like I said before, this kind of shit doesn't have a cause, it has an excuse.

Most importantly though - try to keep safe mate!

B.

 

[Tjerk12]

It was not my intention to justify the behavior of the rioters. What they do is scandalous, yet incomprehensible.
Criminals do their evil work in secret. And they organize things. A burglar is prepared, has tools and a plan. He normally has no connection with the victims. It is just an unethical way of making profit.
Resistance movements have a structure and defined objectives. This is a need, because they fight a stronger opponent. They have a strong bond with their victims, based on pure hatred. They do their work also in secret.
The riots in England are missing, as far as I can see, both features. It is an explosion of sudden violence, making random victims. You could say that there is some form of organization using the modern communication. But that is still very adhoc.
I feel sorry for the victims. Their sense of security is brutally violated.
But I also have compassion with the police. For them it is an unusual task, where they are apparently unable to cope. What would be the public opinion if they had killed several of hundreds of people?
It is the task of the Government to work out a proper solution (one can also think of a compensation for the victims).
In 1981, after the riots in Burnley, a victim whose house was severely damaged decided to leave England. He wanted to live in a safe place, far away from our modern society. So he went to the Falklands. Things went ill with him. What is wisdom?

 

[hawtsean]

It does indeed seem not.

What really disturbs me is that these are kids - has society fall apart so badly that parents have lost all control over thousands of kids? How badly do you have to raise your kids for them to think destruction is fun, and stealing is OK? Is it just that the education system is letting kids fall through the cracks, or is there more to it than that?...................
Behaviour like this can't be consequence-less in a civilised society - if you let it become so, then society breaks down. Justice needs to be universal, when people steal and vandalise they need to be punished, and when the police abuse their power they also need to be punished.

B.

Consequences arise out of the choices we make in life. I don't wish to oversimplify the problem or any potential correction of it, but a good start would be to impose serious consequences for disobedience WHEN A CHILD IS YOUNG. We no longer do that in an effective way. The state of parenting and of education (they are linked) across the world is now such that punishment for disobedience of any kind is disproportionately trivial or non-existent; there appear to be few consequential punishments short of jail, for many offenses committed by persons under the age of majority. This inevitably sets the stage for young people to begin acting out in an increasingly criminal fashion; and with few serious sanctions taken against them, we see a reinforced pattern of disobedience and disrespect for law and order.

I am of the opinion that one of the significant causatory factors in the current behavior model of young people, is the abolition of corporal punishment in much of the world. There are many social scientists who have written volumes on how destructive they believe physical punishment to be; but their model of child-rearing hasn't worked. The incidence of violent behavior in adolescents has steadily risen, year by year, in every jurisdiction where the use of corporal punishment has been banned or greatly eliminated. Yeah, spanking a kid is not the only answer, and I agree wholeheartedly. But eliminating a very basic method of negative consequential reinforcement, and replacing it with nothing else, has created part of the monster with which we must now contend. It's as though we tossed out the baby with the bathwater, in some blind hysterical response to very serious and legitimate incidences of child abuse.

I know that my assertions here may arouse much ire and emotional comment, and I don't intend to begin a long debate here - this is entirely the wrong place for serious debate. Anyone who wants to kick this around in earnest with me (and I have spend a good many years observing and researching the topic), should PM me and get my email address, we can rail at each other privately and not run afoul of the forum boundaries.

 

[777]

It does indeed seem not.

What really disturbs me is that these are kids - has society fall apart so badly that parents have lost all control over thousands of kids? How badly do you have to raise your kids for them to think destruction is fun, and stealing is OK? Is it just that the education system is letting kids fall through the cracks, or is there more to it than that?

If you start from the assumption that the kids parents are ok too... What I see is generation born for a generation that had things equally bad. People have been saying they're just blacks and chavs but that tells more about the person saying that than the people rioting... It's not just the education system or parents failing them, it's the society as a whole that is failing these kids.

 

[crew32]

Goodbye England, you were good while you lasted

 

[hawtsean]

If you start from the assumption that the kids parents are ok too...

Ah, that's where I would say that no, the parents are not really ok. They've made bad choices with regards to child-rearing, disobeying common sense to follow the cockamamie scheme of some social scientist who hasn't successfully raised kids of their own. Then, these parents throw up their hands in failure and want someone else to take care of their mess. Parents need to take ownership of raising their children, not dump that on society as a whole.

It's not just the education system or parents failing them, it's the society as a whole that is failing these kids.

Perhaps the failure of society is that we collectively adopt new test tube social schemes that someone touts as the latest and best - only to find that the result is terrible......but it's too late to turn back the clock. That, to my thinking, is where society has failed; NOT in terms of trying to provide education and support for citizens.

 

[777]

Ah, that's where I would say that no, the parents are not really ok. They've made bad choices with regards to child-rearing, disobeying common sense to follow the cockamamie scheme of some social scientist who hasn't successfully raised kids of their own. Then, these parents throw up their hands in failure and want someone else to take care of their mess. Parents need to take ownership of raising their children, not dump that on society as a whole.


Perhaps the failure of society is that we collectively adopt new test tube social schemes that someone touts as the latest and best - only to find that the result is terrible......but it's too late to turn back the clock. That, to my thinking, is where society has failed; NOT in terms of trying to provide education and support for citizens.

Um yeah, I understand that you bypassed my point altogether and I'd have really appreciated if you would have bypassed my whole answer.

 

[hawtsean]

Um yeah, I understand that you bypassed my point altogether and I'd have really appreciated if you would have bypassed my whole answer.

Well tough beans dude. If you post in a public forum, expect others to respond with various comments. And pray tell, what point did you make that I bypassed......I did respond to your stated assumption regarding parents, and your assertion that society has failed. If there was some other point, it wasn't as clear as the other statements.

 

[Tjerk12]

If you start from the assumption that the kids parents are ok too... What I see is generation born for a generation that had things equally bad. People have been saying they're just blacks and chavs but that tells more about the person saying that than the people rioting... It's not just the education system or parents failing them, it's the society as a whole that is failing these kids.

I think that you are correct in this conclusion, 777. Especially when you talk about these kids. England has about 8 million youngsters (age 14 - 24, male + female). So you are talking about a very small percentage of rioters.

The great majority of the youngsters behave themselves correct.

Politicians tend to show strength, even when wisdom is needed.

In the sixties of the last century we (I was a youngster at that time) had great ideals based on love and understanding. Most of us forgot those ideals and ended greedy and egocentric. So we carry a lot of guilt for that.

It is from an educational point of view important that the criminals will get appropriate punishment.
But... it is important that the action is tailored to this specific group. The majority of the youngsters must not be brought into disrepute!

I have complete confidence in our youth.

 

[MaximumT]

While I haven't followed the events that have lead to this riot, it's horrible to see the effects of it. I never imagined something like this would happen in London, and like many have stated, you can protest against something, but the violence and damage caused up to this point is inexcusable. We live in a civilised world, why can't people act civilised then! Unfortunately, the opportunist criminals that are to blame for a lot of the damages will never be held responsible for their actions.
I just hope historical and priceless artefacts, buildings, statues aren't damaged. A major restoration work is to be expected when all this is over...

 

[gb2000ie]

I think Hawtsean is on to something with the corporal punishment thing. There is a massive middle ground between "beat the snot out of kids" and "do nothing". We seem to be awfully close to do nothing end of that spectrum. I'm living proof that you can raise kids well with a middle option. My parents were both strict disciplinarians, and strongly against corporal punishment. When we were bold, there were consequences, but we didn't get beaten. My parents raised three kids that way, and I think all three of us have come out OK!

So - yes, I think there is a strong correlation between the end of corporal punishment, and the rise in teen thuggery, but I that the cause is the failure to replace corporal punishment, not the ending of corporal punishment.

I also think education is vital. If schools are run with the expectation that kids will drop out, then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you treat kids like they are dumb, they'll do badly in exams, no matter how smart they are, and if you tell kids they can't succeed, they wont. If you repeat that for a few generations you get kids raised by people who expect nothing more from life than to live on social welfare, who go on to expect the same, and raise their kids to expect the same .........

There are a lot of vicious circles, there are a lot of valid grievances in society, but none of them make destroying innocent lives OK. As Tjerk12 already explained, this doesn't look like a real protest. IMO, if this was, the targets would be police stations or government buildings, not shops.

B.

 

[hawtsean]

So - yes, I think there is a strong correlation between the end of corporal punishment, and the rise in teen thuggery, but I that the cause is the failure to replace corporal punishment, not the ending of corporal punishment.

Indeed Bart, I would support that. In education, there seems to have been no thought at all, as to how serious disciplinary sanctions would be transacted, once the use of the cane and other implements were removed from UK schools. Most teens don't need more than extra work imposed or some type of detention, in order to produce an attitude adjustment. I have never been in favour of "six of the best" as an automatic method of instilling an acceptable work and behaviour ethic. At best, an automatic resorting to physical discipline makes kids behave only out of fear. There has to be some fear of being punished at all, but not the kind of fear that makes a kid feel like a whipped dog. Some halfway medium is needed, but was never developed.

I also think education is vital. If schools are run with the expectation that kids will drop out, then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. .

Aye, there's the rub. (sorry, Will S.) Part of the issue in education, to which I speak in the above paragraph, is that public schools were geared to middle of the road learners. Once discipline eroded due to lack of consequential punishment, educators (like badly motivated parents), threw up their hands and stopped trying to educate. Although some of the social issues are different in North America, sadly the same mentality seems to pervade in many regions.

 

[gb2000ie]

Aye, there's the rub. (sorry, Will S.) Part of the issue in education, to which I speak in the above paragraph, is that public schools were geared to middle of the road learners. Once discipline eroded due to lack of consequential punishment, educators (like badly motivated parents), threw up their hands and stopped trying to educate. Although some of the social issues are different in North America, sadly the same mentality seems to pervade in many regions.

I'm not sure how wide-spread this dynamic is, but what I see is teachers being undermined by parents when they try to enforce discipline, so it's not so much that they give up but that they've been beaten down.

They way things seem to go in Ireland is that little Johnny miss-behaves, so the school try to apply a punishment, little Johnny goes home to mammy and tells her the big bad school is being mean to him, mammy marches into the principal's office, makes a stink, and threatens to sue the school for bullying her precious little Johnny. It may or many not come to actual solicitors letters, but once words like lawyer and bullying come into the equation, the school principle gives in, and over-rules the teacher.

End result, the teacher is utterly undermined, the kid learns that they are above the law, and the teacher is utterly demoralised.

B.

 

[hawtsean]

I'm not sure how wide-spread this dynamic is, but what I see is teachers being undermined by parents when they try to enforce discipline, so it's not so much that they give up but that they've been beaten down.-................................
End result, the teacher is utterly undermined, the kid learns that they are above the law, and the teacher is utterly demoralised.

B.

Indeed, that is happening almost everywhere in the educational field. I think that the demoralization of teachers and school admin staff has been the terrible price we are paying for political correctness and being "nice", rather than doing the right thing.

 

[gb2000ie]

Indeed, that is happening almost everywhere in the educational field. I think that the demoralization of teachers and school admin staff has been the terrible price we are paying for political correctness and being "nice", rather than doing the right thing.

Something that I've seen change in my lifetime is the response by parents to trouble in school. When I was young my parents would take the teacher's side and I'd get in trouble again at home for getting in trouble in school. Now, the parents take the kids side, and gang up on the teacher!

B.

 

[hawtsean]

Something that I've seen change in my lifetime is the response by parents to trouble in school. When I was young my parents would take the teacher's side and I'd get in trouble again at home for getting in trouble in school. Now, the parents take the kids side, and gang up on the teacher!

B.

Was the same for me, Bart. If I got punished in school, I got punished at home - my parents were much like your own, requiring me to mind my stuff and do what I was instructed to do by teachers. I had every chance to (politely) air any grievances about stuff, and to their credit both my mom and dad listened and made changes when appropriate.

The ganging up on teachers seems to have arrived concurrent with the devaluation of their position from educators to mere hirelings who babysit the kids for 8 hours a day. That attitude is damnable, and it proves destructive to the whole system. Imagine to what terrible depths medical care might descend, if doctors were devalued in the same way, and treated as fancy clerks whose only job is to toss some pills our way!

 

[777]

Well tough beans dude. If you post in a public forum, expect others to respond with various comments. And pray tell, what point did you make that I bypassed......I did respond to your stated assumption regarding parents, and your assertion that society has failed. If there was some other point, it wasn't as clear as the other statements.

http://www.gayheaven.org/showthread.php?p=744392#post744392

Suffering from memory loss?

Ah, that's where I would say that no, the parents are not really ok. They've made bad choices with regards to child-rearing, disobeying common sense to follow the cockamamie scheme of some social scientist who hasn't successfully raised kids of their own. Then, these parents throw up their hands in failure and want someone else to take care of their mess. Parents need to take ownership of raising their children, not dump that on society as a whole.

In what way does this answer to the statement that

If you start from the assumption that the kids parents are ok too... What I see is generation born for a generation that had things equally bad. People have been saying they're just blacks and chavs but that tells more about the person saying that than the people rioting... It's not just the education system or parents failing them, it's the society as a whole that is failing these kids.

Social problems (like unemployment, substance abuse, domestic violence etc) usually pile up to certain areas and people because the poor and uneducated are living or forced to live in poor neighbourhoods that encourage similar behaviour, not discourage it.

Perhaps the failure of society is that we collectively adopt new test tube social schemes that someone touts as the latest and best - only to find that the result is terrible......but it's too late to turn back the clock. That, to my thinking, is where society has failed; NOT in terms of trying to provide education and support for citizens.

I find that to be utter rubbish. Failing to provide education and support for citizens is exactly where the society has failed these kids and probably their parents too and in some cases their parents. It won't get better by saying the parents should beat their children more, I believe many do already enough of that. It won't change by talking about social schemes that the parents in question probably have no idea of, it won't get better by talking about how they should do this and that... it gets better by providing them with more chances at making their living, better education, better healthcare, better living environment.