RIOT!

[c750dt]

Whisper, I never said the women are the root of all evil. Both, men and women need to use self control. However, the woman is the last step in the equation and has the ability to affect the ultimate outcome.

Yoyo, I agree, it's sick. Have you heard about this?
http://anonym.to/?http://www.dailym...-attack-fear-prevents-parents-dying-baby.html

This isn't a protest. It's senseless destruction for the pleasure of taking.

 

[hawtsean]

Women = the root of all evil?

I thought this thread was about something else...

Not at all, whisper. Women are no more the root of evil than are men. If any evil is about, it's a shared thing.

However, the problem is not just that some women are not taking steps to avoid unwanted pregnancies. It's that the phenomenon of intentional pregnancy to obtain welfare support, is running rampant. Social welfare agencies are well aware of young women who are lazy, who refuse to work despite being fully able to do a normal job, who are often habitual (illicit) drug users, and who willfully get pregnant with the sole intention of claiming hardship, non-support from unknown baby daddies, and who remain on the dole - doing this almost every year. Babies produced only to generate welfare support are a blight on society, and if these women won't clean up their act, someone is going to demand legislation to force the issue.

There are cases of this sort, doented in several Canadian Provinces, a number of US States, and probably elsewhere as well. These women have no true love or nurturing desire for their offspring; babies to them are an income generator and nothing more. Sadly, many of these babies are the ones who grow up to be the type who loot, plunder and riot. Nonetheless, these hoodlums all know right from wrong. None of them are ignorant of the fact that it's wrong to steal and to destroy private property.

 

[hawtsean]

I just cant believe those two girls that are been interviewed in that YouTube clip. How F'ing selfish. They are having a great time. How disgusting. causing vandalism and destruction and not thinking of the consequences.

Hearing the speech of those two girls, indicates to me that they are more than sufficiently educated to understand clearly that what they do is criminal. That they have a lack of remorse for their actions, is just an sad indicator of how bad the situation has become. And, how abysmally stupid is the line that "we're going to show the police that we can do what we want to". False sense of entitlement to run riot, a teenage temper tantrum gone viral.

 

[Whisper]

c750dt & hawtsean, I have to say that I can't agree with 100 %, but I think this thread is not the right place for this, so I'll stop now. Both of you are welcome to talk in private with me if you want to continue discussion. And to both: thank you for your answers

 

[Bender001]

That's where should see that you are indeed well off when you have the skills to do something about your life. If no-one has ever taught you respect others and yourself, nobody has ever shown you compassion,and you don't know how to show it others (because it's seen as weakness), how do you know what is right and wrong? We don't learn such things automatically. Morality isn't inborn in any of us, it has to be taught. If things are bad at home, often you have resources elsewhere too, like in schools and friends, but if it's all the same... where does that leave you? Reality is a subjective matter, so is justice.

Only well-off people are allowed to have children?

I think 777 is very correct in his assessment of the current situation in Britain. The way to solve this problem is education and perhaps job creation. The people who are rioting are desperate people who don't have the means to give their children a decent education and they themselves didn't go to school very long. Combine this with a poor economy with not a lot of jobs for these uneducated people and a drug culture on the streets and what do you get, oh yes RIOTING. Every sane person should understand this, it's sociology 101. This doesn't mean I condone what a lot of people are doing, so they should be punished, but I do understand them. They are literally seeking attention because the government doesn't really seem to care for them, it's like their not represented.

Britain in general is having a very though time at the moment because of a poor economy and largely because the culture in Britain is still a culture of classes, and their isn't a lot of social mobility between them. You have the upper class, the middle class and the lower class, and if you are born in a lower class system you are poor, probably won't receive a decent education and with some luck get a job that doesn't pay very well. Some people take out a student lone, go to college, get a job that pays a bit better and then wind up paying off the student lone for a very long time. So somebody of the lower class ends up being stuck in the lower class, you can't get out, they know they will always be poor and that creates frustration. And if you didn't receive a good education theirs a good change your children aren't going to be raised properly and that means they will be of even worse. And get arrested for rioting. It really is a vicious circle that has to be broken. Their should be more social mobility and opportunities for young people so they can aspire to lead a better life and go to school and raise their children properly, although I'm not sure how to realize this.

This class based culture is clearly visible in British society even in the English language. When people of the middle class refer to dinner, they say dinner, but the upper class people say supper not dinner and the lower class people say tea when they mean dinner. This is truly unique. And the lower class people usually live in the same neighborhood all packed together. which is a very bad situation because it festers a drug and criminal street life. Not a good place to grow up in.

But please correct me if I'm wrong, I myself am not British although I have been in Britain many times and I have British friends who migrated to my country.

 

[Whisper]

I think 777 is very correct in his assessment of the current situation in Britain.
.

Just a little correction: she... That's all

 

[hawtsean]

The way to solve this problem is education and perhaps job creation. The people who are rioting are desperate people who don't have the means to give their children a decent education and they themselves didn't go to school very long. They are literally seeking attention because the government doesn't really seem to care for them, it's like their not represented. This is truly unique. And the lower class people usually live in the same neighborhood all packed together. which is a very bad situation because it festers a drug and criminal street life. Not a good place to grow up in.

Bender001, I snipped the above from your post, to provide a reference for my response. I respect that you feel this way, but my experience in dealing with people in this social strata delivers a markedly different conclusion.

Education - it's offered, even at basic levels. However there is no compulsory factor that keeps anyone in school, if they really decide to leave. Kids are staying home, and the authorities are powerless to really force the issue of demanding that a parent ensure their child attends some type of educational institution.

Job creation - a non-starter right now with the economy in such bad shape.

People rioting are desperately trying to get attention - for sure, but not because they want change. None of the rioters really want things to get better - since they'd have to work an honest day and not sit on their asses. Getting better means taking ownership of all their actions. These rioters want no responsibility or consequences. This is markedly clear from their behaviour and statements gathered from many who are taking part in the riot.

Poor people living packed together behaving badly - yep, an unfortunate fact of real dollars-and-cents economy. Cheap housing tends to flourish in zones and specific neighbourhoods. That is a factor for the last two or three centuries, and changing that won't stop people from behaving as they choose to do. In several US States - Illinois, New York and Massachusetts being three of them - specific new housing developments for financially disadvantaged people were built in non-traditional areas.....places of middle and upper-middle class family homes. Within a year or less, the same trashy appearance and criminal behaviours were observed. I can point out some areas in Canada where the same thing has been tried with the same poor results. One cannot create an attitude change merely by de-segregating a housing development.

It's a nice thought, but a fallacy, that all the rioters really want is better homes and jobs. There is nothing but criminal intent in these riots, despite a tiny basis of genuine despair at the root.

 

[gb2000ie]

Am I the only one seeing a MASSIVE disconnect with the supposed cause and justification, and the people carrying out the vandalism? This is supposed to be about cops beating up black kids, but I'm seeing white kids rioting!

Also - that video from XMan speaks VOLUMES - "we want to show the police and the rich people we can do what we want" - that's thuggery, plain and simple!

B.

 

[hawtsean]

Am I the only one seeing a MASSIVE disconnect with the supposed cause and justification, and the people carrying out the vandalism? This is supposed to be about cops beating up black kids, but I'm seeing white kids rioting!

Also - that video from XMan speaks VOLUMES - "we want to show the police and the rich people we can do what we want" - that's thuggery, plain and simple!

B.

Bart, I think that many see the disconnect, but political correctness (damnable foolishness that it is) and a misplaced sense of rooting for a phony underdog, are preventing some from both admitting that the thuggery is there and verbalizing their dismay. Cognitive dissonance reigns supreme.

 

[777]

I think 777 is very correct in his assessment of the current situation in Britain. The way to solve this problem is education and perhaps job creation. The people who are rioting are desperate people who don't have the means to give their children a decent education and they themselves didn't go to school very long. Combine this with a poor economy with not a lot of jobs for these uneducated people and a drug culture on the streets and what do you get, oh yes RIOTING. Every sane person should understand this, it's sociology 101. This doesn't mean I condone what a lot of people are doing, so they should be punished, but I do understand them. They are literally seeking attention because the government doesn't really seem to care for them, it's like their not represented.

I so agree with you. In Finland we had really small gap between social classes, so much so that there was talk about classless society. It was achieved by progressive taxes and redistribution of wealth. This meant that both rich were less rich than in many other countries and poor weren't really poor. Kids from all classes went (and still do) to same schools and mix.

We have been heading backwards to a class society again since the 90's when neoliberal economy was implemented fast when people were struck by the hard times in economy. Taxation work mostly through taxing products and spending, which hits harder on the poor and is beneficial for the people who have money to pay. There has been changes in the working culture and culture itself too, to a competitive and selfish one. It hasn't been a success for all, there's more and more people who aren't feeling well, and the brunt of it suffered the kids from poorer working class families. Social problems tend to pile up, and to put it quite simply, most of it would get better if these people only had more money.

The purpose of redistribution of wealth is to make life liveable even when jobs doesn't pay much (helps companies too) or if you don't have a job. That attitude doesn't seem to exist any longer. People are seen lazy or just stupid, hopeless, what ever. The people who become long time unemployed usually have major depression on the background, often caused by getting sacked. They don't get the help they need. This causes more problems, and their children inherit this. It's a fact that in the times of bad economy things like domestic violence increases, just because it's harder to make a living which causes more stress which is visible in behaviour. No matter how someone would like to claim it's only correlational data this is the reality you see (and study).

What needs to change, in my opinion, is the politics of economy. This neoliberal BS that makes rich richer and poor poorer while keeping underdeveloped countries in a tight leash too (by the means of IMF, WEF etc). Can anyone say these politics have been beneficial to all people? Or are you of the mind that a certain amount of extreme poverty is expected and acceptable, as one Finnish economist said about the "benefits" of the current policies?

I don't think it's good enough to say economy is hard and there's nothing anyone can do about it (jobs etc) when it's obviously not true. The point of these economic policies is to make more money to a certain group of people, and that it does, whether it's ups or downs the rest of the world is getting and, restoring the ruling class and keeping the power balance in the West (introduce yourselves with the politics of power). It's a choice, but one that everyone needs to make without excusing themselves by saying it just the poor people who are like this and there's nothing anyone can do about it. If one wants the society to be this way, so be it, but no excuses thank you.

ETA: Redistribution of wealth is the thing that has been keeping streets safe in Finland, even if anyone would feel that it's wrong to "give" others money, I'd say it is worth it to have a stable society

 

[Bender001]

I so agree with you. In Finland we had really small gap between social classes, so much so that there was talk about classless society. It was achieved by progressive taxes and redistribution of wealth. This meant that both rich were less rich than in many other countries and poor weren't really poor. Kids from all classes went (and still do) to same schools and mix.

We have been heading backwards to a class society again since the 90's when neoliberal economy was implemented fast when people were struck by the hard times in economy. Taxation work mostly through taxing products and spending, which hits harder on the poor and is beneficial for the people who have money to pay. There has been changes in the working culture and culture itself too, to a competitive and selfish one. It hasn't been a success for all, there's more and more people who aren't feeling well, and the brunt of it suffered the kids from poorer working class families. Social problems tend to pile up, and to put it quite simply, most of it would get better if these people only had more money.

The purpose of redistribution of wealth is to make life liveable even when jobs doesn't pay much (helps companies too) or if you don't have a job. That attitude doesn't seem to exist any longer. People are seen lazy or just stupid, hopeless, what ever. The people who become long time unemployed usually have major depression on the background, often caused by getting sacked. They don't get the help they need. This causes more problems, and their children inherit this. It's a fact that in the times of bad economy things like domestic violence increases, just because it's harder to make a living which causes more stress which is visible in behaviour. No matter how someone would like to claim it's only correlational data this is the reality you see (and study).

What needs to change, in my opinion, is the politics of economy. This neoliberal BS that makes rich richer and poor poorer while keeping underdeveloped countries in a tight leash too (by the means of IMF, WEF etc). Can anyone say these politics have been beneficial to all people? Or are you of the mind that a certain amount of extreme poverty is expected and acceptable, as one Finnish economist said about the "benefits" of the current policies?

I don't think it's good enough to say economy is hard and there's nothing anyone can do about it (jobs etc) when it's obviously not true. The point of these economic policies is to make more money to a certain group of people, and that it does, whether it's ups or downs the rest of the world is getting and, restoring the ruling class and keeping the power balance in the West (introduce yourselves with the politics of power). It's a choice, but one that everyone needs to make without excusing themselves by saying it just the poor people who are like this and there's nothing anyone can do about it. If one wants the society to be this way, so be it, but no excuses thank you.

ETA: Redistribution of wealth is the thing that has been keeping streets safe in Finland, even if anyone would feel that it's wrong to "give" others money, I'd say it is worth it to have a stable society

It is certainly true that blaming the economy is too easy, I just checked the unemployment rate for the UK, it is just 7,7%. That is actually lower then Finlands 8,4%. Although that is just in general.

A lot of people seem to think that the people who were and are looting and rioting just do it to show they can and to just be criminals. The argument is always: Because that is what the people looting and rioting are saying. But it is not so simple, there are underlying reasons that have been festering for years. And those things create the gang and drug culture which leads to rioting and so on. But ones the criminal culture has been created they themselves don't care anymore why and how exactly it has been created. After all those thugs aren't sociologists, they are criminals. And right now you need to arrest those thugs but tomorrow you need to look beyond that and ask yourself where and why it all began to go wrong. and then tackle those issues.

But we will probably agree to disagree.

 

[gb2000ie]

And right now you need to arrest those thugs but tomorrow you need to look beyond that and ask yourself where and why it all began to go wrong. and then tackle those issues.

But we will probably agree to disagree.

Nope - I agree to agree

B.

 

[hawtsean]

A lot of people seem to think that the people who were and are looting and rioting just do it to show they can and to just be criminals. The argument is always: Because that is what the people looting and rioting are saying. But it is not so simple, there are underlying reasons that have been festering for years.

Yes, you and I will inevitably disagree here. None of the societal issues matter, not one tiny bit when loss of property and lives are the result of a major temper tantrum gone wild. I am absolutely certain that no group of poor folk got together, and had a conference and engaged the help of those rioters to press their case for them. If you as a child transacted a massive temper fit, destroyed your room, set fire to your house because you did not get what you thought was your due, I wonder what your parents would have done. This uprising of criminals is nothing more than a large and horrific example of a juvenile misbehaviour.

I understand that many people feel that the riots are a quid pro quo result of deprivation. Well, that is not so. Poverty, joblessness, hunger and depression have never taken a holiday; yet there aren't regular riots of the hungry and destitute --- the ones doing damage are opportunistic thugs, and they cannot claim (nor can anyone reasonably assert) that they are doing this because of poor people's plight. I believe that as a society at large we need to quit inventing excuses for criminal behaviour and punish the hell out of those who act out that way. A prominent Dr. and mental health expert who specializes in criminal behaviour, Dr. Stanton Samenow (St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC USA) has done years of observation and research, among many other specialists. His conclusion, based on over 10 years of gathering data from criminals themselves in interviews as well as police and media reports, is that very few criminal acts ever occur for reasons other than the direct and knowing intent of the perpetrator, with no motivation other than the perp's own greed and willful acting out.

Anarchy - what the rioters are enacting - had never improved anyone's lot, it makes things worse when authority of any kind eventually prevails and cracks down harder on everyone, not just the rioters.

 

[Bender001]

Yes, you and I will inevitably disagree here. None of the societal issues matter, not one tiny bit when loss of property and lives are the result of a major temper tantrum gone wild. I am absolutely certain that no group of poor folk got together, and had a conference and engaged the help of those rioters to press their case for them. If you as a child transacted a massive temper fit, destroyed your room, set fire to your house because you did not get what you thought was your due, I wonder what your parents would have done. This uprising of criminals is nothing more than a large and horrific example of a juvenile misbehaviour.

I understand that many people feel that the riots are a quid pro quo result of deprivation. Well, that is not so. Poverty, joblessness, hunger and depression have never taken a holiday; yet there aren't regular riots of the hungry and destitute --- the ones doing damage are opportunistic thugs, and they cannot claim (nor can anyone reasonably assert) that they are doing this because of poor people's plight. I believe that as a society at large we need to quit inventing excuses for criminal behaviour and punish the hell out of those who act out that way. A prominent Dr. and mental health expert who specializes in criminal behaviour, Dr. Stanton Samenow (St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC USA) has done years of observation and research, among many other specialists. His conclusion, based on over 10 years of gathering data from criminals themselves in interviews as well as police and media reports, is that very few criminal acts ever occur for reasons other than the direct and knowing intent of the perpetrator, with no motivation other than the perp's own greed and willful acting out.

Anarchy - what the rioters are enacting - had never improved anyone's lot, it makes things worse when authority of any kind eventually prevails and cracks down harder on everyone, not just the rioters.

Everybody, including the criminals, are a product of society. It is certainly true that they are doing this just because of their own greed, at least a lot of them. But that is just what they are saying and feeling. You need to look beyond that. How is it possible that society created people who only care about greed and basically to show of what they can do?

I refuse to accept that they are just doing this because of greed, there has to be an underlying reason, else society is doomed. And it is clearly the heavily class based society that creates this problem, if you don't tackle that issue, you will have this again, and again and again.

It really doesn't surprise me that this happened in England and not somewhere else.

 

[gb2000ie]

Everybody, including the criminals, are a product of society. It is certainly true that they are doing this just because of their own greed, at least a lot of them. But that is just what they are saying and feeling. You need to look beyond that. How is it possible that society created people who only care about greed and basically to show of what they can do?

I refuse to accept that they are just doing this because of greed, there has to be an underlying reason, else society is doomed. And it is clearly the heavily class based society that creates this problem, if you don't tackle that issue, you will have this again, and again and again.

It really doesn't surprise me that this happened in England and not somewhere else.

At what point have we surrendered the concept of free will?

We are not deterministic products of society, sure, it exerts an influence, but everything does that, and that does not remove free will.

How depressing life would be if we really were nothing more than sheep who go where we're herded and do what society makes us do.

I have more faith in humanity than that.

B.

 

[Bender001]

At what point have we surrendered the concept of free will?

We are not deterministic products of society, sure, it exerts an influence, but everything does that, and that does not remove free will.

How depressing life would be if we really were nothing more than sheep who go where we're herded and do what society makes us do.

I have more faith in humanity than that.

B.

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me, society isn't this magical shepherd, it is all of us combined. I think we at least agree on that. Example: You're parents are poorly educated, there on benefits, they're not really raising you. Chances are extremely high that you end up not going to school and basically living on the streets with gangs and so on. And you don't go to school because your friends aren't going to school as well, jada jada jada. So it is clearly society (lower class society that is) that is leading the way. If you were born in a middle class family, situation would be different right? So it is your surroundings that shape you. How can it be that society (all of us) evolved to something that can produce people that only care about greed and so on? Society itself is something that evolves over time. And the class based society in general is feeding this gap between rich and poor. That gap becomes wider and wider, and at a certain point a relatively small incident, police brutality, gives the lower class people the excuse to loot and riot against the rest of society.

 

[hawtsean]

Everybody, including the criminals, are a product of society. It is certainly true that they are doing this just because of their own greed, at least a lot of them. But that is just what they are saying and feeling. You need to look beyond that. How is it possible that society created people who only care about greed and basically to show of what they can do?

It is not a given that society creates people of criminal intent and mindset, for that would excuse all criminal action and place the blame on all of society, including you and I. I have never disadvantaged anyone in any way, and I expect the same is true for you and all those whose property is being destroyed and those whose lives are in danger. Why then should we collectively reap what we have not sown? Wouldn't that begin the downward spiral of us being justified to begin rioting due to the very injustice being visited upon us?

We as a society need to get off the paranoia mindset of "I must have hurt someone somewhere to make them do these terrible things", and move forward to providing help but NOT justifying criminal acting out or giving excuses by which further crimes will inevitably be committed. And further, why must we pretend to be mindreaders............these rioting assholes are saying and feeling their "truth" about their actions - so why should we attempt to excuse them by beating ourselves up over some unseen and non-existent causation?

I refuse to accept that they are just doing this because of greed, there has to be an underlying reason, else society is doomed

There doesn't necessarily need to be an underlying issue - that is a fallacy in itself, to seek a causation where there is none. If you consult those who practice social work or delve into some of the researched material, you will see how some mindsets derive of themselves with no help needed. I would try some of the stuff online via the American Psychological Association, and the Journal of Research in Personality for starters. There are some fascinating articles there by acclaimed experts in these fields.

Society at large is not automatically to blame because little Johnny didn't do well on his exam at school, or little Mary felt left out of a group of girls. People act out in ways that often have more to do with greed and "I want", than with actual needs. There have been doom and gloom statements regarding society and mankind for centuries. We are all still here. I don't believe we are doomed, simply because there is massive poverty and despair among poor people. I hurt for them, and in my personal life I volunteer regularly doing work at a soup kitchen and a mission. But I will not wear a hair shirt because some criminals in England are using other people's poverty as an excuse for thuggery.

It is the same thing as that horrible famine in parts of Africa. I have sent money to accredited agencies providing help. I support governments who multiply that help millions of times over, but society did not cause those poor Africans to suffer and die. Misplaced collective guilt can only lead to further bad choices, not a solution.

 

[hawtsean]

.............. Example: You're parents are poorly educated, there on benefits, they're not really raising you. Chances are extremely high that you end up not going to school and basically living on the streets with gangs and so on. And you don't go to school because your friends aren't going to school as well, jada jada jada. So it is clearly society (lower class society that is) that is leading the way.

Two misperceptions here, I believe. One is that this statement presumes an inevitable result. Not so, not from numbers available. Yes, many do drop out but there are significant numbers of kids who do persevere. They are the proof that your stated model of causation by societal influence is not holding up well. I have numbers from both USA and Canada if you really want them.

Secondly, I feel you are totally misusing the word society. Lower class, middle class, etc. etc. are not society at large, they are but demographic groupings created by artificial numbers in a mathematical construct on a spread sheet. When you state that society is at fault for something, you are effectually claiming that all of humanity in that country or region is to blame. That simply won't hold up under scrutiny, either.

 

[hawtsean]

Let me state this before any further exchange takes place:

I respect that Bender001 and others feel strongly that "society" is somehow at fault and has caused the emotional outburst that culminated in the ongoing violence in England.

I feel badly for anyone in poverty, and I too wish to see justice and righteous behaviour from the authorities at all levels. Justice must be done and must be seen to be done.

However, my issue is with the belief that society is at fault. Yeah, I know it's easy to point that finger and demand sweeping change. But the facts and conditions just don't support the contention. I hope it comes across that I am debating the issue and the statements, and NOT finding fault with the individuals who hold those sincere beliefs.

 

[gb2000ie]

Example: You're parents are poorly educated, there on benefits, they're not really raising you. Chances are extremely high that you end up not going to school and basically living on the streets with gangs and so on.

I don't buy that.

My dad's parents were un-educated and poor. His father came from a large family with many kids and a small subsistence farm that was too small to split up between the kids. He was finished school very young, worked on the farm till he was old enough to get a job, and then started at the absolute bottom rung of the ladder in an aluminium factor working with hot metal in sweltering heat for long hours and fuck all pay. He believed in bettering himself, and through nothing more than hard work, he was able to rise through the ranks to foreman, before leaving and getting a job as a truck driver for a brewery - why? He wanted to see the country! He never did get an education, he never did make a lot of money, but he saved very hard, and achieved his life's ambition - both of his sons went to university. My Dad inherited his father's work ethic, and was able to climb up another rung on the ladder, starting his career as an office clerk, and making it up to senior management, and was eventually able to become an entrepreneur and strike out on his own. He did what his father did, and made sure to educate his kids, so I got a college education, and was able to start a career in IT.

At no point in our family history from poverty to middle-class mediocrity was there any need for a handout. My family pulled ourselves up by the boot-straps. I didn't have to do it, because my grand parents and parents did it, but that doesn't mean it's not just as possible today.

In fact, I share my office with the perfect example, a guy my age who is doing the same job as me, but who was born into one of the worst slums in Dublin. He was able to pull himself up, he worked hard in school, and was able to get a scholarship and hence a college education. He's just bought a house - something his parents were never able to do.

You also have the inverse, kids born into very well off families with every opportunity wasting their lives and living off handouts.

Society is not deterministic. People are not mindless control-less sheep!

I asked my office mate what he thought about the riots, having grown up in the same conditions - he didn't think it was an excuse or a justification, and went on to excoriate the same chip on the shoulder or entitlement mind-set that Sean has been speaking against here.

Nothing justifies being immoral shits like these wankers!

Now - having said all that, I strongly believe in giving people a hand up, not a hand out, but a hand up. Help people to help themselves, but don't create a system where they become dependent on help - that breeds problems, and it breeds a sense of entitlement and a chip on the shoulder.

I find it my duty to vote for progressive parties who believe in a just society, and I do that in every single election I am entitled to vote in. I want to see more money spent on schools and youth centres. I want to see the massive chasm between the poorest of the poor and the richest of the rich shrink by orders of magnitude. I want free healthcare and education for all, so that every child born into every home has the same opportunities to make something of their lives, and that no one has to beat more obstacles than anyone else.

That's why I agreed with Bender001 that we need to restore order now, and then tackle the injustices in society. It's not enough to just restore order and then carry on regardless.

B.