A New Migration Period

[W!nston]

So Europe has an economy. Europe has jobs.

What happens when an influx of millions of homeless, jobless, penniless people force themselves upon Europe? The 'economy' can afford to absorb so many jobless people and house, feed, educate and provide healthcare for them when they have never contributed anything to the 'economy'?

In America the unemployment rate is rigged to make things look better than they really are. The current rate is listed in the 5% to 6% rate. The problem is the government says the only unemployed people are the ones receiving unemployment benefits currently. Anyone who has exhausted all of their 6 months of benefits drops into what is called 'chronically unemployed' category which is not reported making the rate look much lower than reality. The actual rate is probably in the 10% range or higher. I'm guessing the same game is used to mask the numbers in Europe.

What happens when there are millions added to the workforce who don't speak the language or have a cultural connection, they're homeless and poor so they don't present well in job interviews and if they don't find a job they will need to support themselves and their family somehow.

It seems the disaster in their homelands will follow them to Europe and that will cause a great recession or economic depression. That will destroy things for the West.

It sounds like a cold wind is blowing across the continent.

 

[Shelter]

I know this will be taken the wrong way and I probably shouldn't ask but what the hell...

Why is it Europe's responsibility to absorb millions of refugees from the Middle East and Africa?

There are plenty of Muslim countries in the world who could take in those fleeing the IS. Why isn't it Saudi Arabia's, U.A.E.'s, Kuwait's, or any one of the other hundred Muslim countries responsibility? Where is their sense of 'humanity' for their fellow Muslims?

Saudi Arabia alone has enough wealth and plenty of space for tens of millions of refugees.

I've never been to Abu Dhabi but I have friends who visited there and say it is a fantastic city without any residents... just transient migrant workers and filthy rich elite types... plus the tourists and travelers passing through.

There are many refugees fleeing to Europe from African countries, too, right? Why does Europe have to absorb them? There are prosperous countries in Africa. South Africa for example. Why can't they take them in? Wouldn't the refugees be welcome there? If no why not?

Another question comes to my mind. China has entire cities full of empty skyscraper apartment and office buildings with all the infrastructure built in. They could take in 100,000,000 refugees with room to spare. Why aren't they jumping in to absorb the Muslim and African refugees? Has anyone asked them or tried to guilt trip them into taking them in?

Why should Europe take millions of destitute refugees with only the clothes on their backs then house, feed, provide health and education for them when countries in their own geographical area or with their own cultural background have more of a responsibility to help them than Europe?

Now, go ahead and repeat all of the politically correct dogma about how America and Europe are to blame for all the bad things in the world etc.

:cheers:

Sniffit - a very interesting proposal. But I think the leading figures in these so called "free" countries in Africa or Arabia are totally uninterested to help their "fellow brethren".

 

[Shelter]

What happens when an influx of millions of homeless, jobless, penniless people force themselves upon Europe? The 'economy' can afford to absorb so many jobless people and house, feed, educate and provide healthcare for them when they have never contributed anything to the 'economy'?

What happens when there are millions added to the workforce who don't speak the language or have a cultural connection, they're homeless and poor so they don't present well in job interviews and if they don't find a job they will need to support themselves and their family somehow.

It seems the disaster in their homelands will follow them to Europe and that will cause a great recession or economic depression. That will destroy things for the West.

It sounds like a cold wind is blowing across the continent.

You are here totally right Sniffit. I think many or the most or better all these refugees come to Europe to find a better life for themselves as well for their families. I have a totally understanding for their dreams.

But I think as well - it will be in the most cases only dreams. Austria, Germany are not the heaven or the lands of milk and honey. They have their own problems as well. Nonetheless we all are ready to help (with a few exceptions!). But as I said before - our resources are confined. Some of the refugees will be surely be an enrichment for our society. But many, if not the most, not. They have hoped for "milk and honey" and they will find only disappointment. As well I don't know how a good integration in our society shall happen.

Couldn't it be possible that parallel societies will growing up? And that could be a dangerous development! Most Muslims come from a very strict society where women are worthless - which is not our moral concept.

And if the now refugees will notice that they will be here as well poor, jobless - couldn' that lead to an uprising out of frustration? :thinking:

 

[jazzeven]

I know this thread is supposed to be for Europeans only, but I am wondering if any Europeans are now regretting stopping the USA from airstrikes years ago to try and stop all this carnage from getting so bad now, Europe was against any hep to the Syrians trying to over throw Assad starting in 2011 and for several years after that.

The airstrikes were one more short-sighted idea of the USA. If someone is removed from power, there has to be an idea who follows. Else the gap will get filled otherwise, like in this case by ISIS. Ironically this is once more a situation where the US supported a group which then turned on them.
Military force can support a solution but it is never a solution on its own.
As Obama is way too smart not to know that, it is most likely that he used Syria as an example to show Iran that the president still has the power to hurt, to broker maybe the smartest deal an US offical has made for quite a long time and which might justify his nobel peace price (and recommends him as the next Jimmy Carter for international conflicts).

Just think a moment about what the Iraq might have been like, had the US not occupied and destroyed it but instead waited for things to play out. First of all, the nimbus of the US being able to occupy and rule a region would still have been intact, which would have given them a lot more to bargain with in Syria. Iran most likely would have come to an agreement much earlier, as the US would have made a worse antagonist while at the same time having an enemy-of-my-enemy status. There could have been a lot more stability in that region and more save havens for the refugees of the conflicts which inevitable would have happened at some point (maybe even some which got pushed further into the future by the US involvement but still will happen, just without the west being able to get involved as a neutral power).

So to draw a straight line from not bombing someone to a raging civil war looks mighty pointless to me.

 

[Shelter]

shelter, if we do nothing or better said if we create a bunker 'Europe' ... the uprise will be certain !
They have the same right to welfare and well-being as we have, unfortunately they are born in regions where these don't exist ... not for the common mortel ...

My dear friend you are totally right and I will subscribe to every word you have written here.

But honestly - it is not possible for Germany or Austria to take over all these people which are in dire straits. And believe me it will be too not very easy to integrate all these people in our society or to give all of them a satisfying job.

 

[gb2000ie]

Now, go ahead and repeat all of the politically correct dogma about how America and Europe are to blame for all the bad things in the world etc.

No - it's just a case that everyone should do their bit. It's not ONLY Europe's responsibility, but Europe should do it's bit.

We're not talking about who does the cleaning, we're talking about human lives here, so to me, "but they're not helping too" is a shitty excuse to sit back and do nothing. IMO it comes down to behaving in a humane way. Or, in fact, in a CHRISTIAN way.

Your post implies that Muslim nations are not taking in refugees - they are, and they have been for many years now. Just because we don't hear about it on western news, doesn't mean it's not happening.

As a quick experiment, pop 'Jodran Refugee Camps' into a Google image search, and be amazed - the camps are mind-blowingly big.

B.

 

[W!nston]

Jordan is not a wealthy country. Saudi Arabia and others are. They could take in refugees but they don't. Does Saudi Arabia send financial aid to Jordan?

I know this is a tragic situation and it needs world-wide attention and the efforts of more than just Europe and America to solve it.

I'd like to see how much help would be offered to Europe if the situation was reversed.

I don't identify as a religious person let alone a 'Christian'. Religion is responsible for this mess to begin with.

There's an article I read earlier today about the refugees entering the Balkans. I'll look it up and post it.

 

[W!nston]

Migrants in the Balkans: Everyone wants to be Syrian
Associated Press | By DUSAN STOJANOVIC | September 6, 2015 1:26 PM

HAJDUKOVO, Serbia (AP) — A Pakistani identity card in the bushes, a Bangladeshi one in a cornfield. A torn Iraqi driver's license bearing the photo of a man with a Saddam-style mustache, another one with a scarfed woman displaying a shy smile.

Doents scattered only meters from Serbia's border with Hungary provide evidence that many of the migrants flooding Europe to escape war or poverty are scrapping their true nationalities and likely assuming new ones, just as they enter the European Union.

Many of those travelers believe that using a fake doent — or having none at all — gives them a better of chance of receiving asylum in Germany and other western European states. That's because the surest route to asylum is to be a refugee from war and not an economic migrant fleeing poverty. That fact has led to a huge influx of people claiming to be Syrian.

Serbian border police say that 90 percent of those arriving from Macedonia, some 3,000 a day, claim they are Syrian, although they have no doents to prove it. The so-called Balkan corridor for the migrant flight starts in Turkey, then goes through Macedonia and Serbia before entering the European Union in Hungary.

"You can see that something is fishy when most of those who cross into Serbia enter January first as the date of their birth," said border police officer Miroslav Jovic. "Guess that's the first date that comes to their mind."

The chief of the European Union border agency Frontex said that trafficking in fake Syrian passports has increased.

"A lot of people enter Turkey with fake Syrian papers, because they know that they'll get asylum in the EU more easily," Fabrice Leggeri said.

In Germany, customs authorities have intercepted packages mailed to Germany containing Syrian passports, both genuine and counterfeit, the finance ministry said.

Syrians transiting through Serbia are concerned about the trend.

"Everyone says they are Syrian, even those who are obviously not," said Kamal Saleh, pointing toward a group of people camping in a Belgrade park. "That is not good for us Syrians because of limited number of people who will get the asylum."

Saleh left everyone he loves back in Syria — his wife, a baby boy and a shattered home in a Damascus suburb.

But, unlike many other migrants surging into Europe, he feels fortunate: he has a Syrian passport that he keeps carefully wrapped in a plastic folder and tucked inside his secret trouser pocket. The doent, if genuine, should prove that he is a refugee fleeing war, and not a migrant fleeing poverty or economic hardship. A huge difference when asylum applications are considered.

His countryman, who identified himself only as Yemen, added: "There are too many people saying we are from Syria, but he is not from Syria. He is black and he said 'I am from Syria.' Unbelievable. "

International aid agencies estimate that nearly 340,000 people have sought to cross EU borders since January. Two-thirds of the latest European arrivals are believed to be from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and Eritrea — countries considered by international aid groups to be "refugee producing states," due to ongoing war or records of human rights abuses.

According to the 1951 Refugee Convention, those fleeing violence and persecution are entitled to basic rights under international law, including the right not to be immediately deported and sent back into harm's way. A migrant could be someone who chooses to resettle to another country in search of a better life and is eligible for deportation.

EU rules say the country where a migrant first arrives must process the asylum claim. But Germany last week abolished this obligation for Syrians, triggering a surge of people trying to travel through the EU to get there, adding that only refugees fleeing for their life, and not those fleeing poverty, will be allowed to stay.

Aware of the potential asylum rejection, many migrants fleeing poverty are getting rid of their identity doents altogether.

Among those who had no second thoughts about ditching their true identity was Rafik from Pakistan.

"I'm leaving my old life behind," said Rafik, who gave only his first name because he feared repercussions when applying for asylum in Germany. "I'm starting a new one."

"I don't have a passport, nor any other identity paper," he said, as he dashed under the fence into Hungary. "Let's see which country they will choose to kick me back to."

SOURCE

This seemed like a good discussion point for this topic so I'm posting it here.

 

[gb2000ie]

I'd like to see how much help would be offered to Europe if the situation was reversed.

In fairness, the post-WW2 era showed us that the rest of the world will help Europe out where Europe is on it's knees. America effectively gave Europe $130Bn (in today's dollar) of aid through the Marshall plan.

There was international debt forgiveness for Germany to the tune of about half it's debt.

So we know from experience that others will help us when we're the ones in big trouble.

I don't identify as a religious person let alone a 'Christian'. Religion is responsible for this mess to begin with.

No, and I'm with you there. The reason I mention it is that the vast vast majority of the politicians against helping DO parade their supposed Christian beliefs when it suits them. It's that kind of hypocrisy that pisses me off. To me, these kinds of situations are tests for supposedly Christian politicians - do you REALLY believe in Jesus's message? Or is it just a convenient way to get votes?

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Re people wanting to be Syrian - I don't see the problem. These people are all coming from countries the west tore to shreds, why would they not seek out a better life? Is that not the dream America was founded on after all?

I don't get why people trying to better themselves is a bad thing. Trying to vilify people who emigrate because they live in a poor country with a shit standard of living makes no sense to me. To my eyes, that is entirely in keeping with western ideals - the supposed leader of the free world was literally founded by exactly that impulse.

B.

 

[W!nston]

A Wikipedia page says:

Figures for the population of Europe vary according to which definition of European boundaries is used. The population within the standard physical geographical boundaries was 740 million in 2010 according to the United Nations.

SOURCE

It goes on to say the median age of Europeans is higher than the other continents.

These refugees are an invading force that will bring about changes to the cultures of Europe we can't predict. Some changes might be benign but I'm afraid many will not.

It's a thing for the young to ponder. I have more yesterdays than tomorrows so it will affect me less than others.

I just thought I would point out some points to consider about this developing tragedy.

 

[gb2000ie]

A Wikipedia page says:



It goes on to say the median age of Europeans is higher than the other continents.

These refugees are an invading force that will bring about changes to the cultures of Europe we can't predict. Some changes might be benign but I'm afraid many will not.

It's a thing for the young to ponder. I have more yesterdays than tomorrows so it will affect me less than others.

I just thought I would point out some points to consider about this developing tragedy.

European culture is nothing but a collection of traditions and arts brought by immigrants. We have ALWAYS had waves of immigration, that is what makes us European. Why is this time different?

B.

 

[W!nston]

Immigration is good in moderation. Invasions are good too I guess. The thing is the transition period between the waves of immigration (or invasion) and the assimilation of those changes into the societies is usually full of turmoil and trouble.

So let's celebrate it!

I'll buy the first round my friends!

:cheers:

 

[gb2000ie]

Immigration is good in moderation ...

Right - the population is on the order of hundreds of millions, and even now, in the middle of a serious crisis, immigration is on the order of 100s of thousands, so about 1 tenth of 1 percent.

We are not giving immigrants vetos in our democracies, so how, exactly is the end neigh?

B.

 

[W!nston]

Who said anything about the 'end is nigh'? Not me.

If anyone thinks there will be no turmoil or trouble associated with these immigrants that is their opinion and time will tell if the concerns mentioned above were unjustified.

One way to make the refugees feel welcome would be for the good people of Europe to offer to share their dwellings with them. It could be a sort of foreign exchange program. They could learn the language from the locals while the locals learn a little about their culture. It sounds crazy but I think it could help everyone adjust.

Do you know if anyone has suggested that solution to the problem? Is there a list for those interested in sharing their dwellings with the newcomers to sign up online or anything?

I'm not even being facetious - I'm serious. I think it's worth a shot. That would make the politicians look more foolish than they do now, lol, if that's possible

 

[gb2000ie]

Who said anything about the 'end is nigh'? Not me.

If anyone thinks there will be no turmoil or trouble associated with these immigrants that is their opinion and time will tell if the concerns mentioned above were unjustified.

One way to make the refugees feel welcome would be for the good people of Europe to offer to share their dwellings with them. It could be a sort of foreign exchange program. They could learn the language from the locals while the locals learn a little about their culture. It sounds crazy but I think it could help everyone adjust.

Do you know if anyone has suggested that solution to the problem? Is there a list for those interested in sharing their dwellings with the newcomers to sign up online or anything?

I'm not even being facetious - I'm serious. I think it's worth a shot. That would make the politicians look more foolish than they do now, lol, if that's possible

You are right that how you treat immigrants once they arrive is critical to how things pan out. Anecdotally, based on the snippets I am seeing on the news, there seems to be good integration, at least in parts of Germany, where these people are being accepted as part of the community, not herded into a ghetto and left to fester. I don't live in Germany though, so I don't have an on-the-ground perspective. I imagine there is a mix of good and bad, and depending on which media you watch, you'll be shown only one or the other.

I know that Ireland is really bad at this.

We converted an old holiday camp into what is basically a concentration camp, put the immigrants in there, and ban them from working. The immigrants WANT to work, they WANT to integrate, but our government makes that impossible.

This stupid policy also makes it really easy for the racists to sound sane - they rant about how the government is paying for all these free-loaders, and about how these people won't even work for a living, they just sit around and get free stuff.

I hope no on copies Ireland in this regard. It absolutely does not work well this way!

B.

 

[jazzeven]

These refugees are an invading force that will bring about changes to the cultures of Europe we can't predict. Some changes might be benign but I'm afraid many will not.

There will be problems, there will be disagreement, and there will be the need for compromise on both sides. Massimigration is far from a good solution, but right now it is the best alternative available. And as usual when there is no valid alternative, it does not make sense to pretend there was one. This is a deer-in-the-headlights situation: trying to avoid it although steering is not possible will most likely cause greater harm than just trying to brake and to run straight into it. It is the alternative which allows the least hurtful outcome and in the best case at least some level of control over the situation.

 

[haiducii]

It looks like Hungarian people are same shit like ISIS

Hungarian nationalist TV camera operator filmed kicking refugee children



READ MORE

 

[tiogilito]

I think many are "benefit shopping". I also read somewhere that ISIS claim they managed to send some 4000 operatives with the migrants.

And some have some ingenious ways to ensure they get refugee status: Convert to Christianity, because then you cannot be returned to many Muslim countries as this is a crime in most, and carries the death sentence in some.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...anity-Gottfried-Martens-Trinity-Church-Berlin

I am sure others will also suddenly discover their gay side to get a partnership visa.

Here is the rub, as least for me, if you are running for your life, you would stay in the first place you get to, such as Turkey for example... So I I don't believe much of the bleeding hearts stuff.

And why are the rich Saudis not taking any? They say, they worry about terrorism. Maybe we need to as well...

Personally, I think we should help the real refugees who stay in Turkey or Lebanon. If we give just anyone a free ride who comes along and forces his way into the country, we will soon run out of money and become much the same kind of place they have come from in the first place.

So I agree with the PM of Hungary, sure up the borders and take control first. people come on our terms not theirs.

 

[Shelter]

I don't want to be misunderstood. But hasn't Tiogilito a little bit right? We can't open our borders for the whole Balkans and the whole Near East, as horrible as it may be.