A New Migration Period

[gb2000ie]

I think many are "benefit shopping". .....

If ONE person does something that can be interpreted as bad, the right wing will plaster it all over their stations and make it seem like ALL refugees are at it.

That's how this game goes, find one example of what you want to be true, and share it with the world.

Take 100,000 people, you are guaranteed to find some ass-holes you can use to scare people with.

Finding the truth is really hard because this is such a raw topic with the right wing - xenophobes are petrified of foreigners, and racists hate them, so together these groups will so everything they can to make us distrust and/or hate hate 'those people'.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt - the weapon of choice of oppressors everywhere. We've seen this game before - conflating gays and pedos in the media is another prime example of this same playbook.

B.

 

[tiogilito]

and the consequences will be ... ?

we cannot live in a bunker called Europe if violence and dearth and plagues and wars and death and torture are just one step behind the borderline !

Ok you can only have one of two things: open borders OR a welfare state. If we simply allow anyone who wants to to come and claim benefit, the state will go bankrupt, and we end up being little different from the countries the migrants come from and civil war will invariably result. Have you been to Malmo recently? Worth a visit. A sign of things to come.

I am an immigrant in the UK, but it did not simply barge in. I followed the rules, and I never claimed anything from the state. I did not even use the National Health service when I was sick before I got a UK passport.

The fact is, nobody is owed a living by anyone. It makes me quite angry to see people assuming they can trample all our laws and simply make demands. Do we not have poor people of our own?

If you really want to live in Europe you should follow the rules. If you cannot even do that on arrival, how on earth can you integrate into a new country?

Having said that, yes, sure, we should help GENUINE refugees. If you want to come as an economic migrant you should say so honestly, and bring something that makes you desirable in your new country.

As to which country is safe, that is quite simple: A country where you life in not in imminent danger is safe for a refugee. You don't have to like the government. If you run from Syria because you are scared you stop running when you reach a place where the Syrian problem do not exist. People like that need 100% support, but with a view that they eventually reclaim what is theirs if possible. Once you have reached a place where your life no longer is in imminent danger, you are a refugee. If then you move on to get better benefits you become, by taking that first step, an economic migrant. A real refugee wants to go home when things have improved and rebuild his country. Most of t the European arrivals have no intention to ever return. I have seen hand outs Migrants have in Calais. They explain the asylum process and benefits in each country, and very tellingly the benefits are called "WAGES"....

Remember that little boy on the beach? Here is the part they do not mention in the news:

The whole family had been living in Turkey for 3 YEARS on state benefit, when they decided to set off for Europe. And the plan was this: The wife and children go on their own first, because they will get asylum more easily. The husband STAYED in Turkey. They the horrible thing happened and all his family died at sea. The husband discovered his the next day by looking at pictures at a police station in Turkey. He then told his "alternative" version to the media, resulting in mummy Merkel acting on motherly instinct rather than common sense, making it much worse.

 

[gb2000ie]

Ok you can only one of two things: open borders OR a welfare state.

You make it sounds like these are binary systems - they are not. No border is fully open or fully closed, and there are a billion levels of welfare.

When you apply such a simplistic filter to the world, you limit yourself to these kinds of false dichotomies.

Basically, the real world makes a mockery if your oversimplification.

B.

 

[tiogilito]

No border is fully open or fully closed, and there are a billion levels of welfare.

No of course no border is really closed. The reality is that in normal situation governments regulate immigration. Governed and controlled immigration is a very good thing. Currently the people smugglers decide who comes to Europe, and the EU government is merely thinking about where to put them all, as if they were some kind of natural phenomenon like rain.

Our governments need to have control over the borders. Otherwise we simple end up being minorities in our own countries. Sweden is already in some parts experiencing that, and the government is rapidly running out of cash.

But in the end, we all have to deal with this situation, because when we do nothing, they might take by violence what we were able to give, but didn't want to.

Well, you seem to be very quick to surrender. Let me point out that the beard of the prophet does not respond to stroking, in the words of the Swiss prime minister. Do you really thing you can buy peace from terrorists? Be nice and they don't bomb you?

Or, if you cave in to the demands of the new arrivals (who obviously are not (all) terrorists, only about 4000 of them as ISIS says...), do you think you can preserve any of our hard won freedoms, such as equality of the sexes, gay rights or freedom of speech? These are alien to the new comers, and we can expect them to be seriously challenged as numbers grow.

These values are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Islam, we see the result in Germany... Turkish Germans will follow sharia guidelines every time over the fundamental law of the state. This is one of the reasons that integration is not always good, and this is why there effectively two different Germanies. If you want to see what happens if poorly integrated people get more numerous, check Sweden and their daily car bombs. They ARE offering asylum to a lot of people, and it is not helping them....

 

[tiogilito]

how long did you live in Germany ?
how long did you live in Sweden ?

Germany doesn't have an important immigrant population, but has a population of about 80/85 mill and an economy to support everyone who lives there.
In the town where my parents live, there is absolutely no shortage of jobs, the businesses are looking, even crying for young people for an apprenticeship and don't find applicants.

I do concur with one point of yours : when you arrive in a country, you live by the law !

And the turkish German do not follow sharia law over the constitution, neither do the french muslims here in France. You only have to read the papers to discover the absence of mass mouvements demanding sharia law ... it's more the contrary : about 99,5% of the muslims don't want to live in a land where sharia is the law ...

Why do people whenever they cannot answer something resort to personal attacks?

I have been born in Germany and went to school there, and have a Swedish mother, and that has nothing whatever to do with the topic. I have also written two books on Islam, one of which earned me a death sentence in Saudi Arabia. And Germany does not have an important immigrant population? :rofl: Check out German history since the 60s.

And only recently the ZDF (the German equivalent to the BBC) showed a doentary of Turkish families in Germany. Sure not all all are the same, but this is entirely commonplace:

Marriage should only be with other Turks, a girls are not to go out with German school friends or on school trips, homosexuality is seen as totally unacceptable. For boys mixing with others is less of a problem, but generally girls may not. Also, marriages are generally arranged, even for gay people. Surely you know that Germany and also France (as has the UK) have contributed a large number of ISIS fighters. Sure most Muslims don;t really want to have the COMPLETE sharia, but almost all want aspects of it. They want restrictions of free speech, discrimination of women and gays, and special status for Muslims over others. Perhaps it is you you should have a closer look at the news, and if I am allowed to make a suggestion, try to get your news from a larger variety of sources.

Turks in Germany have in general brought Turkey with them. Worse, second and third generation Turks carry a version of Turkey and Islam n their heads which is quite different from the Turkey today.

Sweden has moved from one of the safest countries in Europe to being the rape capital of Europe, and almost all of these offences are committed by immigrant.

 

[tiogilito]

you take it as a personal attack if I ask the question if you know Germany or Sweden ?

Not so much as an attack but as an attempt to derail the points made with an age old logical fallacy named by Thomas Aquinas as "ad hominem" (= against the person). You are basically saying unless I have lived in Germany all I say can be thrown on the garbage heap. Instead of talking about what I say you try to find faults with who I am. You are claim an argument is false not because of what it says but because of who said it. This has long been known as a logical fallacy.

And for that same reason I don't care to label people as right or left wing, but instead listen to their points and answer them.

Some of your figures are somewhat wrong. There are at least 3 million Turks in Germany, for example, as you can easily establish with a quick google.

I think they [my views on this issue] are wide spread

That too is a logical fallacy. By the same argument I could say: Billions of flies eat excrement. So we should eat it too. Even a majority can be actually wrong on something. You need to check it out.

And you are condemning a whole group over the actions or behavior of some few.

I am suggesting that GENUINE refugees must be helped, no matter who they are. The MAJORITY of the migrants are not in fact refugees at all. This is even borne out by the refusal rate of the asylum applications.

But I also point out that people from the Muslim Middle East have a very different set of values to the hard fought for European ones. They do NOT, as a general rule, believe in equality of the sexes, gay rights or freedom of speech. Most even loathe democracy. Why do you think there are no real democracies in the Middle East, apart from Israel?

A large influx will change Europe, just as Mrs Merkel says. I seriously doubt it will be for the better.

Germany in a way has a special issue: they are having an ageing population so an influx of young SKILLED immigrants will help them on that. But as Germany gets more islamicised we will loose many of the things we take for granted in Europe. Charlie Hebdom is a casing point. As Muslim population grows they will demand that free speech is restricted.

Do I really need to quote Qur'an for you. Please read that book, it is enormously important to virtually all those arriving, and if you are short of time start with surah 9. You will be amazed what you find.

According to the Koran, a non-Muslim is less than nothing:

"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:55).

Those who reject (Truth) among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will abide in hell-fire, they are the worst of creatures. (Sura 98:6)

So you and me are worse than cockroaches for ANY Muslim, remember that.

Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures. (Sura 98:7)

ANY believing Muslim, by article of faith, sees him self as superior us the likes of us. That is what Islam teaches. It also says what Muslism should do with non-Muslims:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued Sura 9:29

Muslims have a DUTY to FIGHT (the Arabic word is "fight to the death") ANY Non-Muslims unltil one of three things are met:a) they become Muslims b) they are dead c) they pay jizya (=protection money) to Muslims to allow them to live.

Now, personally I LIKE the democracy we have, the rights I have and the society I live in. I can be myself without having to hide.

Are we really that keen to abolish all that?

 

[tiogilito]

There is no other word for what you wrote than 'b...s...' ! Cite your sources, just like I did ! Being as vague as that is, IMO, intellectual crookedness.

Too lazy to check? Let me help.... It really is very very easy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_population

There you go. Scroll down the page, and you see... Turkish population in Germany = 3.500.000 to 4, 000, 000

so the information I gave was outdated

Yes it was. So I was right after all. No need to have a tap dance or get into a hissy fit when it is pointed out. Anyone can get things wrong. However, normally when I get facts wrong I apologise...

But you cannot make a distinction between Germans who were always German and Germans who have Turkish ancestors.

Oh, go on and tell THEM that idea. Tell the second or third generation Turkish descent German immigrants that they are no longer Turkish. I am sure they listen. It is their own MINDSET that sets them apart, not me... Please tell them they are German, but carefully, as some may give you a black eye, and almost all will get very angry pointing out they have proper standards, and are decent people, not like the disgusting, fat, pork eating, beer drinking German pigs.


What makes someone a European (or a German in today's world) are things like a belief in equality before the law, equality of sexes, a support for freedom of expression and free speech, for example. These are things we all shared, until quite recently all over Europe. Now that is no longer the case it seems. The idea that education for girls is unimportant because they are merely to be married off and have children is not commonly found in Europeans nor Germans, but very commonly found in Muslims. And that is just one example. And we stand by and accept that.

A few months ago a Muslim father beat his son so bad he needed hospital treatment. When it went to court, the judge, insanely, ruled that the father was innocent of grievous bodily harm because in his culture beating children was acceptable. So we no longer have equality before the law, as any English father doing the same would have gone to prison.

So we need to think carefully before we so readily put all these things in danger. It is changing ever so slowly, and before we realise many very precious things are lost for ever.

Not long ago you could walk all the streets of London even if you looked gay. Now, some areas of the city are unsafe for gay people, as we have "sharia patrol" in tower Hamlets. Young guys mostly born here keeping non-Muslims, specially gays and women in Western dress out of "their" streets.

Tolerance to those who a different to you is a good thing, and hugely important. But you cannot be tolerant to those who want to abolish tolerance.

 

[tiogilito]

I always wondered where you got that information ...

article of Le Monde, web edition (for French speakers) :
http://anon.projectarchive.net/?htt...s-manipulation-et-verite_4751442_4355770.html

this article analyse and take apart point for point the lies which circulate about the photo and about the family history.

Interesting, but it does not address the issues I mentioned.

Here is an article that does...

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/

Now earlier you attempted a slur on my honesty when in fact you happened to be wrong and not me, by your own, rather hesitant admission.

This is yet another subtle, quite devious slur... you produce an article about various untruths told in relation to this sad, horrific story, not in English, in the hope people will not read it, only to IMPLY that anything I said in relation to that is also false. Well, it isn't false, and I am sure you know that. You just don't like facts to get in the way of a good spin....

BTW I speak Swedish German French Spanish and Indonesian as well as English, so of course I read French newspapers.

 

[tiogilito]

How sad is that??

I wonder, dear Petra Laszlo, what would you think one day if you'll move to another country looking for work (what will you probably need to do) and you are kicked or tripped up by some nationalist over there...

A double-edged sword cuts both ways.

Yes that is awful, and she should be ashamed for doing that.

But simply ignoring lawful police instructions and refusing to follow the laws of the land is also not acceptable. So the whole scene is really very disturbing.

It is also a warning... worse than this, with violence from both sides, is just around the corner.

You do know that many of the young man amongst the migrants carry knives?

Have a read around the goings on in Calais...

 

[Machor]

?

This is very controversial threat so I will not comment anything, because my opinion CAN be very offensive for someone!
So I'll just post this picture: Refugees from Syria and Iraq take selfies with German Chancellor Angela Merkel outside a camp near the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees in Berlin, Sept. 10, 2015.



One picture 1.000.000 words! GLE!

 

[tiogilito]

again you distord the truth ... I admitted freely that the information on the total number of Immigrants was outdated.

For the rest, the german federal agency of statistics is certainly better informed than the english written wikipedia ... and its numbers a those above !

and, a German is a German - to make distinctions on particular backgrounds is what the nazis did to the jews and we all know where that led ...

as for the rest of your tale, I have faith in the continental european justice system ... but it doesn't surprise ME ... after all it's not really european anymore but anglo-saxon (sorry for the other English).
Now you can tell me that I'm a racist (sort of ...) ...
I will be very glad when or if the English population will vote on their remaining in the EU ...

What is there to distort? Are there between 3 and 4 million Turks livving in Germany or not?

And, as to a "a German is a German", well you and me may think that, but that is not what most of the Turkish people in Germany think. I assume many French Moroccans see themselves also as somewhat separate from French society.


I too like our justice system, even though it is somewhat different from France, but looking at the inept way the EU handles this problem, I have no faith at all in them. I will be voting for leaving the EU, on the basis of the shambles I have seen in the last few weeks. before I was undecided. If our own governments turn out to be incapable we can at least vote them out. But the EU commission?

If the current situation continues, the first thing to go will be the Schengen agreement.

 

[tiogilito]

This is very controversial threat so I will not comment anything, because my opinion CAN be very offensive for someone!


One picture 1.000.000 words! GLE!

Yes... Mutti Merkel still has no dress sense ...

I remember when she came to meet the Queen and ,looking round Buckingham Palace, she asked the Queen about her heating bill :thumbs up:

She is a warm, feeling woman with big, kind heart. Sadly that is not always the best qualification for a political leader.

When these guys sent this selfie to their friends in Syria, what do you think they will do?

And have you noticed the guy has an apple phone? How does that square up with this image of those poor and needy refugees?

 

[tiogilito]

as I said before ... as the German Federal Agency for Statistics published (numbers for 2014) :

there are exactly 1 527 118 Turks living in Germany ...

Well 2014 is not now. So "are" should be "were". And that figure, as you well know is also misleading in the way you present it:

There are roughly 4 million Turks in Germany of which 1.55 million still hold a Turkish passport.

As to those Turks who hold a German passport, virtually none would call him- or herself a German, and many would be very offended by that notion. So let's count people by their own definitions not by your.

Most live in the western province of North Rhine Westphalia, and about 80% are on benefit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/1...ttlers-germany-live-welfare-daniel-greenfield

 

[tiogilito]

I don't know any Turks with a German passeport ... I do know Germans who happen to have parents who are not German ... and they are just as trust worthy as all Germans ...

As to your last sentence, I do know very well that region of Germany ... it's where my parents live and where I grew up ! And where I visit them regularly ...

No problems to report ...


as for your sources ... write to them and tell them that they are in disgreement with the German Federal Agency for Statistics ...

If you actually bothered to read what I said, I did not argue your figure, but merely pointed out that you use them in a misleading way, by pretending the minute someone get a German passport suddenly their self-perception changes. I know loads of people with a Swedish passport who, of asked will always say they are Somali. There are between 3.5 and 4 million Turks in Germany, and nobody in their right mind would dispute that.

A passport does not make a personal identity. You are basically just abusing a statistic by re-defining what "Turkish" is.

As to the problems in that connection, maybe read around a bit:

Here is some background from the German press:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...eption-and-wasted-opportunities-a-716067.html

This study show that the Turks in Germany are the worst integrated immigrants IN THE WORLD.
http://www.thelocal.de/20090125/16987

And 80% of them being on benefit is no problem to you, it seems. So the German governments adds a whole lot more benefit receivers to that total.

The money has to come from somewhere... so for sure the taxes will rise.

And while in the "new countries" (the former DDR) unemployment is very high, housing dilapidated and old age pensions live on the poverty line or below because their pension worked out on GDR wages, converted to Euros at a very bad rate, the German government suddenly had oodles of cash to throw at this "crisis".

If this is not a recipe for civil unrest I don;t know what is.

 

[Shelter]

Only one word to the Turks in Germany - the Turks with a German Passport have as well a Turkish passport! They wanted it and they got it from our government - the DUAL CITIZENSHIP! Well and from this reason I can count them as well as Turkish.

And just I've heard that in Baden-Württemberg (in south-west Germany) the schools have got the order not to greet with the there common words "Grüss Gott" (I cant translate that literally but it means "Good Day" literally perhaps "greetings to God") because it could insult the feelings of the muslim pupils! I think if such pupils or their parents are feeling insulted from these common words they have the freedom to go to another place of this earth. But answer me: why should I give up all my habits to make the Muslims in MY country happy and pleased. They have chosen to live here in Germany and they have totally and without any question to accept the life and the customs of their host country. That doesn't mean that they have to resign their own creed or their own ways. Nevertheless it would be better if they would assimilate with the people of their host country - and then and only then they could be "real" Germans. But the most Turks here in Germany (and I'm living in a city with nearly 200.000 Turks - the biggest Turkish city out of Turkey!) don't want to assimilate. Some of them - as well with a German passport - don't speak even German even if they are living here since more than 20 years! And believe me - I know from what I'm speaking here.

And a last word to the refugees from now. Near the house of some friends of us is an old School-House which is now, since 4 weeks, populated by refugees. In the School-House it is strictly forbidden to drink alcohol. So now all the surrounding streets are full of drinking men from the Balkans. And German Beer is strong and perhaps they are not used to - so they are very quick drunk and in this condition they are roaring the whole night on the streets because they cannot go back to their "home" in the School House because their alcohol and drunkeness is forbidden there.

Every evening and night police cars driving through the streets with their siren's wailing and from time to time they will be attacked by a mob from this School House with stone's throwings.

Perhaps you will understand that the first good feelings of the German residents are now on a low point. Only a short time and from this low point feelings will emerge hate.

Assimilating means not so to live as they have lived in their villages, but they have themselves to subordinate of our behavior. Not we have to adjust us to the behavior of the refugees.

And as I said above - if they all don't like it or if they don't like our laws or our creed or our behavior - they are free to go wherever they want.

And perhaps it would be good as well if they would learn the terms of "Bitte" (please) and "Danke" (thank you) instead of the terms "Ich will" (I want) or "Ich fordere" (I demand)!!!!

 

[tiogilito]

you not seriously compare one of the most respected papers in the world, le Monde, avec a online page called 'The Muslim Issue' ?

I don't read pages like that, sorry ...

when I created the link to the 'Le Monde' page, it was obviously to not make it available for reading :no: !

and it addresses point for point the lies contained in your link about the family of the little boy.

Now I think they are lies, you think Le Monde lies ...

that's all I will say ...

No, I am not saying anything about Le Monde as a paper, but I am saying that you need to make more of an effort to get ALL the facts than simply rely on one paper.

And you doing the ad hominem fallacy again. You will not even read something because of your belief as to what or who the authors are. If a thief says "stealing is bad", will you also say he cannot be right because he is a thief?

Read the page it won't bite you.

No it does not address the point at all. It only repeats the FATHER'S media comments that he was actually on the boat, as a by the way, while answering other issues. The article is not focused on that and therefore does not even try to question that.

In reality he was not on the boat at all, he sent his family ahead as many migrants do. It is easier to get asylum that way. He only later pretended he was on the boat, to make himself look a little better. There are numerous issues with his story: Why did he no raise the alarm when he allegedly swam back to shore? Then he mentioned that his wife was dead and "bloated" floating on the sea. Not to be vulgar, but a drowned dead body does not start bloating until at least 24 hours in the water. There are several others, but if you do not want to know what can I say?

The true story is just as horrific, but it does not have quite such an innocent husband as he makes out to be. Sure, this was the last thing he wanted to happen, but he should have known better than to make his wife and children take such risks.

 

[tiogilito]

But I am really horrified by those who defend their well-being in the face of abject horror without a simple thought of compassion and equal chances.

Interesting idea... only nobody actually said that. So go and set an example. Give all your belongings to the migrants and all your money. Then have some staying in your house, cook, clean and feed them, teach them French, show them around, do their errants.Please show everybody how committed you are. When you die from exhaustion I will come and place a flower on your coffin.

Now ... Equal chances are a good idea. Did people in the places like Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan never get a chance to change their own country into something better?

The migrants don't want to be EQUAL....:rofl: What ever gave you that idea. They want to take what we have worked for and be the rulers. Gadaffi predicted this, and slowly but surely it is happening. Why do you think 80% of Turks in Germany are on benefit? Are you really saying that is our fault too?

Remember the Quran, teaching the same thing several times: You Muslims are the best of PEOPLE, and the unbelievers are the worst of ANIMALS. Muslims have to believe this and invariably they do. Read Quran 3:110 for example or 98:6

If you want to change things, do them by legal means but retain your humanity about it.

What about the migrants, should they do that too?

s of mankind

Ah, so you agree with the QUr'an then... Generally when somehow resorts to shouting abuse it means he cannot find any better answer. Calling people names who disagree with you is in fact a FASCIST tactic. It is an attempt to deprive others of freedom of speech by violent means, so that only your own view is heard.

be a good citizen and follow the law, even if you do not agree.

I live in the UK not in Germany. And I always follow the law. I worked abroad, Indonesia. But I applied for a visa and followed the rules. I didn't sneak in, demanded free housing and benefit and I did not dump rubbish on Kuta beach. So you are asking the wrong guy.

So here is the problem: when you ask SOME people to shut up and follow the law while others are allowed to do whatever they want, you will create civil unrest, and eventually violence. Nobody wants that to happen, and Mutti Merkel does not either. But maybe she has not worked it out. Can you go for a walk on motorways? leave huge piles of rubbish behind? Cross borders illegally? Simply refuse to do as the law demands, such as register and give fingerprints? Beat up policemen in Macedonia? Demand free travel?

And all this is allowed if you have come from far away? I thought you said there should be one law for all.

If she really wanted to help properly, she should collect some refugees from Turkey or Lebanon perhaps, process them while still there, and then give them a visa and plane ticket. That would ease their burden and cut off the profits of the smugglers. That way also she has control over who comes and how many. At the same time they should refuse to allow any people in who do not follow the EU rules on claiming asylum, and claim it in the first country of arrival, and get registered.

Opening the doors simply because people basically because she is being forced to is very silly because it encourages more to come.

Yes, of course we should help genuine refugees, and not squander the available help on economic migrants.

I guess we are quite done on this thread. So, even this piece of "s" wishes you a nice evening or what is left of it.

 

[gb2000ie]

Yes, of course we should help genuine refugees, and not squander the available help on economic migrants.

The word "genuine" sets off alarm bells, because it's often a euphemism to hide some form of hate. "genuine rape" being the most recent example of this meme.

What, pray tell, is a 'genuine refugee'? Someone who is moving because they are facing a shit life for some reason beyond their control I guess? So how is that different to someone facing a shit life because they were born into poverty? Do people choose where to be born or something?

And what, pray tell, is wrong with economic migration? Economic migrants are people who want the chance to make a good living. Economic migrants are the ultimate embodiment of western values - people trying to better themselves.

The much-vaunted American Dream is nothing less than economic migration!

Is it just that it's OK when White Christians migrate to build a better life, but wrong when others do it?

Or, is all this just pure selfishness - "I was lucky enough to be born in a nice place, you were not, so f**k off already"?

Just about every western culture has a long tradition of migrating to build a better life. For any western nation to condemn others for doing this same is pure hypocrisy, and usually nothing more than thinly disguised xenophobia and/or racism IMO.

B.

 

[W!nston]

C'mon GB - tell us how you really feel.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Are you saying no country should try to control it's borders and just open them to anyone who wants to stroll through because their country sucks and they want a piece of the good life where the pastures are greener? Are you calling for mass migration from the Third World into the First World because we owe it to them? That is what it sounds like.

And what happens once Germany reaches it's limit of 800,000 refugees? Will they be called racists if they try to stop the rest of the refugees at their border and say 'Sorry, you are #800,001 and we have reached our limit'.

When will the refugee crisis be considered 'over'? Do we really think the refugees will stop trying to follow the millions who've already made it to the cities where the streets are paved with gold?

By your logic:

... Someone who is moving because they are facing a shit life for some reason beyond their control I guess? So how is that different to someone facing a shit life because they were born into poverty? Do people choose where to be born or something?

And what, pray tell, is wrong with economic migration? Economic migrants are people who want the chance to make a good living. Economic migrants are the ultimate embodiment of western values - people trying to better themselves. ...

The West should open all the borders and make it known that everyone in every country who is born into poverty may start walking or swimming and come on over where the gold flows like honey from public fountains.

Does that sound about right? Would that make amends for all the horrible things the First World countries have done? Or should it be taken one step further and all those born into a First World country should be re-located to a Third World country to make more room for economic refugees.

I'm just askin'

 

[gb2000ie]

Everything we do today has to be done by a process - so does immigration.

Everyone coming in needs to be registered, checked against wee things like terror watch lists, FBI most wanted lists, and what ever lists InterPol have.

Everyone obviously needs ID cards of some form, and anyone found guilty of a crime within the first N years needs to be fecked back out.

My question has always been the same through out this thread, are the rich nations taking in as many people as they can? I don't think we are, and until that changes, I think we need to take in more people.

Again, feeling like a bit of a stuck record, it's not a binary thing - open doors or closed doors. The entire debate here is a question of degrees, not a question of absolutes.

Also - it takes a lot of get-up-and-go to actually get up and go into the great wide unknown. It's the kind of thing you don't do on a whim, or if you're just a little uncomfortable, it's the kind of thing you do when things are really bad, so there are always going to be less migrants than many fear.

B.