A New Migration Period

[tiogilito]

There is no need to get sharp... ok, so you mean opportunity, and I mentioned that too in the last post. It is a perfectly valid question to ask to WHOSE opportunities we should all be equal to. Any one in particular, or some lowest denominator?

Take just ONE simple area... education. Does equal opportunity mean everybody should get the SAME education, exactly? And which one? Invariably we settle on some sort of average.

What about the ones who not quite so bright, would they not get left behind? And the most able, would they not get bored? Would it not be better to have a system that looks are each persons specific needs? But that means it is not longer equal, some people get the chance to learn more things than others. Or should we have philosophy and calculus classes in special schools?

Now, what does equal opportunity actually mean to migrants? In offering them a place in a migrant hostel or tent village in Germany, away from everybody else, with little or no chance to land a job or have a family, does that make them equal? You can give them a bed and some food, you can TRY to give them an education, but you cannot make them into something they do not want to be.

Would they be not a lot more comparable to you and me if they had a chance to live in a place similar to their real home, with the same culture, the same language they are used to?

 

[gb2000ie]

You can give them a bed and some food, you can TRY to give them an education, but you cannot make them into something they do not want to be.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

It sounds like you are saying migrants don't want to work for a living? Please tell me I'm wrong?

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

As for questions of what equality means - it means everyone gets a fair shot. Not that everyone gets the same shot, but that everyone gets a fair shot. Your question about smarter and less smart people implies to me you are still confusing equality with homogeneity.

I thought it went without saying that 'education' meant 'suitable education'. If you want to be a mechanic, then you should be able to do an apprenticeship. If you're the next Stephen Hawking you should be able to get into a university.

You seem to see equality of opportunity as a communist-style proscriptive thing, everyone must get exactly the same thing.

It's not about that at all - it's about being able to access the education you want to pursue, regardless of the accident of your birth.

You seem to be looking top-down, I am look up bottom up. Government's job is to give people the opportunity to pursue the education that suits them, not to tell people what education they should have!

Like justice, equality is something to strive for and aspire to, but I doubt we'll ever get there. That, however, is no reason not to do our bit, and to move things in the right direction.

Yes, we can't just wave a magic wand and give everyone everything they should have access to if this were to be a fair world. But we should do our bit to make things more equal.

I said at the start that everyone has a right to food, a roof over their head, and an education. If we can only achieve two out of three, well, fuck it, that's better than just letting people die!

B.

 

[tiogilito]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

It sounds like you are saying migrants don't want to work for a living? Please tell me I'm wrong?

B.

No, many in fact want to work. Sure, some have the idea that others owe them something, but everybody is different. And the real problem is the gap what the want and what they can do.

I was talking what in reality happens in Germany. People arrive, They see the nice "Welcome" sign. Then they end up in increasingly overcrowded refugee homes, which in the German press have been compared to concentration camps. They don't speak the language as a rule most have few skills. In Germany, unless you have A levels, as a native you are in danger of unemployment and poverty. Those are the LOCAL people. Then what real chances does a migrant have?

 

[tiogilito]

As for questions of what equality means - it means everyone gets a fair shot.

So equality to you does not really mean "equality" as in x = y ...

BTW in UK eqaulity in education to many means exactly what I said: the SAME provision for all. Grammar schools are "Elitist" for example, and everybody, irrespectively or talent or ability studies the curriculum prescribed by the government, the "national curriculum".

A FAIR shot? That is an interesting idea. I am all for that. But what exactly does it mean? Does a "fair shot" mean everybody is entitled to have all his expectations met? "Fair" is a woolly word.I means thousands of different things.

I do not think any of us are entitled to a fair shot in life. Some of get crippling diseases, some are lucky, some are not.

I cannot make demands on people luckier than me, so why can other people make such claims. Is life even fair?

Sure showing solidarity and mutual support is a good thing. But we can legislate for life to be fair no more than we can legislate for the tide to stop or to extend human life by 1000 years.

To me "fair" in politics is a sort of buzz word that actually means very little. When we apply to specific things it can mean something: a fair way to conduct a job interview is not to discriminate on race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, age and such things. But we surely must discriminate on the basis of skill and ability to do the job.

But when politicians go on about a "fair society" I tend to stop listening. Society is not fair. Life isn't. All a government can do is provide a safety net for the victims of life. And if any single government, as in Germany, suddenly decides anyone in the whole world can use their safety net, it will go bankrupt. Germany disrupts what little infrastructure is left in Syria by getting more people to leave for a fairly bleak and insecure future. Who in the end will be left to rebuild that place? It once was a really beautiful country.

Interestingly in many places of the world, this safety net is not in fact provided by the state, but by family and neighbours.

We really are not saying anything much different, we mostly disagree on how best to provide help.

 

[Stonecold]

In America I would be happy if justice could be equal for all. Same crime, same priors, same sentence but that sadly is not the case at all.

 

[tiogilito]

Some people here may find this clip interesting. It is by a guy who lives in Sweden who came there as a child during the Bosnian conflict. He expresses his views on this issue rather eloquently and strongly. This clip was make quite some time BEFORE the current influx...

 

[Shelter]

This was great - and I always thought he was speaking about Germany!

 

[gb2000ie]

No, many in fact want to work. Sure, some have the idea that others owe them something, but everybody is different. And the real problem is the gap what the want and what they can do.

I was talking what in reality happens in Germany. People arrive, They see the nice "Welcome" sign. Then they end up in increasingly overcrowded refugee homes, which in the German press have been compared to concentration camps. They don't speak the language as a rule most have few skills. In Germany, unless you have A levels, as a native you are in danger of unemployment and poverty. Those are the LOCAL people. Then what real chances does a migrant have?

That is a challenge the Germans will have to rise to. Indeed, all nations taking in emigrants will have to rise to this challenge.

I don't think anyone is pretending any of this is simple or easy.

But, you should not only do the right thing when it's easy!

B.

 

[Shelter]

Munich has reached its limit. On Suturday nearly 13.000 migrants came to the city. Nearly 5000 will not find a place to rest. And the next trains are on the way. Since a very, very long time I've been a supporter of Chancellor Mrs. Merkel - but here I think she has made a capital error when she opened the border gates for an totally uncontrolled inflow of migrants. - Now how to close the border gates again?

It's shaping well on every front page of the great newspapers of the world - migrants shooting selfies with a mildly smiling Mrs. Merkel. But the bottle is open - how to close it again?

I'm afraid to say that soon the "Welcome" posters will be history. I can see in our papers that the wind is changing. And I don't know if this "challenge" will be realized by everyone which now in the moment is weaving a welcome-poster.

Just in the moment "Alman" is super but how much longer? And will it be "super" still for the local population - or isn't that allowed to ask for? I really and honestly hope that the real refugees, those who have to fear for their life and/or their safety, will not be overrun by this headless policy avalanche.

And in some posts before I believe Sniffit has given the clue to the many pictures from the refugees. And he is totall true - you only or mostly can see young, proper man and from time to time as well a woman or some children. That's really a clue to scrutinize!

To help others at their need always should be, but what happened in the moment will give us here the feeling to be overrun by a stampede!

 

[jazzeven]

I'm afraid to say that soon the "Welcome" posters will be history. I can see in our papers that the wind is changing. And I don't know if this "challenge" will be realized by everyone which now in the moment is weaving a welcome-poster.

Ehm, the current limit is not the limit of people germany can take in. It is just the limit of how many can arrive at once in Munich. Those capacities were already at their limit before the current wave. Some effort was made by a lot of Germans to stretch this limit as much as possible, but this was all done within days and not the weeks or months it would have needed to do it the correctly organized way.
Also October is near and that is pretty much the cut-off time, when people should be inside real houses in Germany. There is no point in leaving them the choice to travel to a country in which they will freeze to death, while waiting on being registered.
But this and the question, what Germany is capable to offer, are two different questions. Even if one fails temporary, the other one still can work, and even if one works, the other one can fail entirely.

To help others at their need always should be, but what happened in the moment will give us here the feeling to be overrun by a stampede!

Because, well, it is a stampede and we are in fact overrun. This was just a measure to open a valve and allow for pressure to get released.

 

[W!nston]

Yes. This epic migration reminds me of the legend of the Trojan Horse.

History repeating.

 

[gb2000ie]

Yes. This epic migration reminds me of the legend of the Trojan Horse.

History repeating.

You're gonna have to explain that one to me, because I can't see what this has to do with a war over a beautiful woman, or a piece of unorthodox military thinking, a few thousand years ago.

The refugee crisis is pretty much the exact inverse of military strategy, no one designed this mess!

Also, a fictional story is not history, and obviously can't repeat itself!

B.

 

[W!nston]

There is an old saying - Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. This saying comes from the legend of the Trojan Horse.

As the story goes ......

A long time ago, there was an ancient city-state on the coast of Turkey, across the sea from Sparta. This city-state was named Troy. At one time, Troy and the other Greek city-states were pretty good friends. But times had changed.

The city of Troy was protected by a high wall built around the city. Some parts of the wall were 20 feet high! There were gates in the wall to let people in and out but it provided great defense for the people of Troy. It gave the Trojan warriors a relatively safe place to stand, while they rained arrows down on the people below, who were trying to break into the city.

The Greek warriors had been trying to breach the wall around Troy for about ten years. The Greeks could not find a way in, and the Trojans did not seem able to drive the Greeks away.

Odysseus, a Greek general, had an idea. His plan was to build a horse, a beautiful and huge wooden horse, and leave it outside the gate. Then, the entire Greek army would pretend to leave, as if they had finally admitted defeat. But the horse would be hollow. Thirty men would be hiding inside. That's what they did.

As the Greek warriors sailed away, the people of Troy rushed outside, cheering. They found the horse. Fortunately, they did not try to burn the horse. They dragged the horse inside the city gates to keep it on display, which is just what the Greek general thought they would do - gloat.

That night, while the Trojan people were sleeping, the men hiding inside the wooden horse climbed out and opened the gates. The waiting Greek army entered Troy. That was the end of Troy.

There is a war going on, right? That is the reason given for the flood of refugees into Europe, right?

Are you seriously suggesting there is no chance a few hundred or a few thousand or more agents of ISIS are among the millions of people invading Europe at this very moment? They are secreting themselves inside the beautiful 'Trojan Horse' flood of sympathetic refugees created by the war going on in Syria that no civilization who prides itself on being compassionate at all costs could ignore or turn away.

The forces at work in the Middle East have stated their plans clearly as this excerpt from an article dated Sept 04 2015 shows:

ISIS SMUGGLER: 'WE WILL USE REFUGEE CRISIS TO INFILTRATE WEST'
4,000 covert terrorists already in place 'awaiting' orders
Published: 09/04/2015 at 8:19 PM

ISIS fighters like these, 4,000 of them, are already in place in Western nations, a jihadist smuggler confirmed.

As the migrant-train standoff entered its second day in Hungary, with thousands of mostly Syrian refugees seeking passage to Germany, it’s time the West recognized this shift in Muslim populations for what it is, say American activists who have been warning of a “fifth column” for years.

Author Robert Spencer wrote Sept. 4 in Front Page Magazine, “This is no longer just a ‘refugee crisis.’ This is a hijrah.”

Hijrah is the Islamic doctrine of migration, which is a form of stealth jihad.

“To emigrate in the cause of Allah – that is, to move to a new land in order to bring Islam there, is considered in Islam to be a highly meritorious act,” Spencer wrote. He cited the following Quranic text:

“And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many locations and abundance,” says the Quran. “And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him, his reward has already become inbent upon Allah. And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful” (Quran 4:100).

And now, looking at Europe and America, a migration invasion of a much greater magnitude is underway.

Evidence of that invasion came in February when an ISIS operative confirmed what many already suspected – the Islamic State is using the refugee crisis to form a fifth column of Muslim fighters inside Western nations.

The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 trained ISIS gunmen have already been smuggled into Europe – hidden among innocent refugees, reported the Express, a British newspaper.

Hungary’s prime minister, Victor Orban, was lampooned in the European media Thursday for writing an op-ed in which he stated Hungary was blocking the Muslim migrants to preserve its Christian heritage.

But more European leaders should be as astute as Orban, says Clare Lopez, a senior Middle East analyst for the Center for Security Policy.

“Today, it is the nation-state system and any concept of national sovereignty that is under concerted attack by the forces of the global jihad movement,” Lopez told WND. “Jihad is not only a violent phenomenon but can be pursued by many other means, including hijra.”

The ISIS smuggler, in his 30s with a neatly trimmed black beard, revealed to BuzzFeed that the ongoing clandestine operation has been a “complete success.”

“Just wait,” he smiled. “It’s our dream that there should be a caliphate not only in Syria but in all the world and we will have it soon, God willing.”

“They are going like refugees,” he explained. “Others just go to Europe to be ready.”

The Islamic State operative spoke exclusively to BuzzFeed on the condition of anonymity and is believed to be the first to confirm plans to infiltrate Western countries, although similar statements have been made through unconfirmed ISIS Twitter accounts.

ISIS is believed to be actively smuggling covert gunmen across the 565-mile Turkish border and on to wealthier European nations, the smuggler told BuzzFeed.

He said ISIS now has more than 4,000 fighters “ready” throughout the European Union.

ISIS operatives are taking advantage of Western nations’ generosity toward refugees to infiltrate Europe, he said.

The ISIS fighters use local smugglers to blend in and travel within the ranks of a tidal wave of illegal migrants flooding into Europe, both by boat from North Africa and on land through Hungary and Austria into Germany, Belgium and Sweden.

Persecuted Christians stay behind

More than 1.5 million have migrated into Turkey alone, with millions more refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and outside their homes in Syria itself. Almost all of the migrants flooding into Europe are Muslims.

Most of the Christians have been hiding in churches and homes in the Middle East, afraid to venture to the United Nations refugee camps, which tend to be managed by Muslims, WND has previously reported.

“The Christians are afraid to venture into these camps, because they believe they will be harmed” said George Marlin of Aid to the Church in Need, a Catholic group that is sending aid to persecuted Christians in the Middle East.

From Turkish cities such as Izmir and Mersin, the Muslim refugees venture across the Mediterranean aiming for Italy, the smuggler said.

Then the majority head for the most welcoming nations – Sweden and Germany – turning themselves over to authorities and appealing for asylum.

Plans to conquer Europe from within

The jihadist smuggler said ISIS has laid ambitious plans for the future of Europe.

“It’s our dream that there should be a caliphate not only in Syria but in all the world,” he said, “and we will have it soon, God willing.”

“There are some things I’m allowed to tell you and some things I’m not,” he said.

The revelation came just days after a spokesperson for Islamic State called on Muslims in the West to carry out terror attacks.

The jihadist told Western followers if they had the opportunity to “shed a drop of blood” in Western countries – then they should do so. ...

SOURCE

The 'Trojan Horse' figure of speech is a universal metaphor and an educated person such as yourself is surely aware of it.

As for the 'History Repeating' bit ... the 'Trojan Horse' strategy has been used before:

Trojan horse

Gaining admittance to a fortified area under false pretences, to later admit a larger attacking force.

Military deception
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Military deception refers to attempts to mislead enemy forces during warfare. This is usually achieved by creating or amplifying an artificial fog of war via psychological operations, information warfare, visual deception and other methods. As a form of strategic use of information (disinformation), it overlaps with psychological warfare. To the degree that any enemy that falls for the deception will lose confidence when it is revealed, he may hesitate when confronted with the truth.

Deception in warfare dates back to early history. The Art of War, an ancient Chinese military treatise, puts great emphasis on the tactic. In modern times military deception has developed as a fully fledged doctrine. Misinformation and visual deception were employed during World War I and came into even greater prominence during World War II. In the buildup to the 1944 invasion of Normandy the Allies executed one of the largest deceptions in military history, Operation Bodyguard, helping them achieve full tactical surprise. ...

SOURCE

Is that enough clarification?

:big hug:

 

[gb2000ie]

I don't think anyone is presenting the refugee crisis as a gift with a sting, it might be a sting with another sting, but there is no gift on offer!

B.

 

[W!nston]

The 'gift' is making one's self feel good about doing something noble to assuage the feeling of guilt for having a better standard of living than those in the desperate situation of war.

I would think you would realize that. I don't understand why you did not.

 

[tiogilito]

But, you should not only do the right thing when it's easy!

Sure... nor should you do the wrong thing when it is difficult.

Most of the people arriving are in fact not families but single young men. Have you ever wondered why that might be? Or who actually benefits from this situation?

The main beneficiary is in fact ISIS. This raises the question is migration of this kind is not in reality a weapon of war. It is a a way to bring disarray to Europe to weaken it. As we can expect about 15 million of these migrants in the next 10 years, each bringing their family and having children, more children than the average German family, we get to about 45 million "new Germans" in just 10 years or so. Soon after Germans will be a minority in their own country,and then all kinds of things change.

This is a clip with a German economics professor analysing this, his conclusions, not mine:



Its not that it has not happened before.... After all what is today Turkey once was entirely Christian, the place where Paul was most active, as was Libya, once the home of St Nicolas and St Augustine. Where did they all do? Where did all the Christian Palestinians disappear to?

And it is also not the first time that migrants get abused as weapons:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu..._engineered_migration_as_a_weapon_of_war.html

 

[gb2000ie]

Most of the people arriving are in fact not families but single young men
...
As we can expect about 15 million of these migrants in the next 10 years, each bringing their family and having children, more children than the average German family, we get to about 45 million "new Germans" in just 10 years or so.

Would you like to have your cake or eat it? Either they are mostly single men, or mostly families - they CAN'T be both!

Mind you, you seem to have decided that people fleeing war are either all terrorists, or all part of a master plan to destroy Europe, so either way, you seem to prefer we just let them all die.

Your arguments in favour of inhumane inaction strike me as xenophobic at best. You seem convinced these foreigners simply MUST be a threat, but you can't quite figure out how, so you jump from argument to incompatible argument in the space of a few lines.

Out of the few hundred thousand people emigrating, there is guaranteed to be a handful of truly bad people. One will be found, and used by propagandists to imply all migrants are like that, and mobs will be incited do horrible inhumane things - mark my words, there will be supposedly civilised Europeans engaging in disgusting barbarism soon enough.

B.

 

[Stonecold]

I don't understand why they are fleeing with the expectation for another country to take them in instead of fighting for their country and lives. They are young and strong. Yet won't stay and fight for their own children's lives and homes. They want to be in stable free countries but not willing to make the sacrifice that the courageous young men in those countries made to gain that freedom and stability.

 

[talkinginsane]

Agree