let's talk about the situation in Israel/Ghaza

[Shelter]

Hi guys - I know that all of you are normal people like me and all of us are no politicans or professors for political sciences. But nevertheless I think you will have an opinion in view of the Israel/Ghaza conflict. Let us talk about that conflict and let us talk about it so as if we would sit together in a bar or restaurant with friends - only your opinions.

And SNIFFIT please you especially are invited! We need you!!!! p

 

[W!nston]

The conflict between Muslims and Jews didn't start with the creation of Israel in 1947. It would not end with the destruction of Israel either.

I will defer to other more educated chatters to list the historical chronologies, evidence and facts if and when they chime in.

I believe the Muslim countries who surround Israel have learned what a indominable force the Israeli military is. The guerilla style warfare being played out against Israel is the only way Hamas can inflict pain and suffering on the civilians in Israel. They shouldn't be surprised by the reaction from Israel.

The Palestinians are caught between the Jihadists and Israel. Not an enviable position. I doubt Israel will flinch first. They will not bow to the Muslim hoards. I think Israel will stop at nothing to defend it's self. Hamas and those who are supporting them will have to stand down first. Israel will not.

Of course this is only my humble opinion. I will not be posting any doentation or other material to support it. I don't feel it's necessary. It's just my opinion.

Sniffit

 

[Shelter]

Thank you Sniffit - a good and interesting start.

It is my opinion too that Israelis and Palestinians never ever will be friends as long as we live and as long as both peoples will exist. I will understand that Israel has to defend their country against the rocket assaults of the Hamas. But from what is coming this hate of the Hamas against Israel? Has Israel not treated the Palestinians as criminals from the first day? I think and I believe hate is not simply there - it grows over a long time if you are ill treated by others day by day. And what is the reason of the hate of the Jews against the Palestinians? What they have done first to make the Jews so angry and hateful? A vicious circle!

 

[bigsal]

@ Sniffit

Thus justifying the massacre of civilians, including hundreds of children, only to demonstrate the great power of the Israeli state.

 

[W!nston]

Don't put words in my mouth please Something else maybe but not words, hehe

I said the Palestinians are caught in the middle of a war between Muslim jihadists and Israel's military.

I think Hamas knows how Israel will react to attacks on it's people.

Hamas is equally guilty for the loss of life in Gaza. Israel is equally guilty for the loss of life in Israel.

I'm not taking a side. Neither side. I was pointing out the conflict is not a new one.

I have not accused anyone else of justifying the loss of Israeli life due to attacks from Gaza. I hope no one is accusing me of justifying the loss of Palestinian life due to Israeli attacks.

I hope I explained my position more clearly that time.

 

[bigsal]

I also do not take sides, I assure you.
But it seems that only Israel and the U.S. Government do not have noticed the disproportionate use of force used in this new "defensive act."
Anyway I'm sorry if I wrote something offensive. Do not forget who I use a virtual translator, whose words sometimes lead to misunderstandings.

 

[W!nston]

I agree that Israel has and will inflict disproportionate retaliations.

Let's not forget the rhetoric used by some Muslim leaders that calls for the utter destruction of Israel to the point of wiping it off the face of the earth. If it were within their power to do so I believe they would make good on that threat.

Isn't religion great? That is sarcasm not sincere...

 

[dargelos]

Let's get the concept of Moral Equivalence out of the way. The idea that x bad things on one side compensates for y bad things on the other side. In the first world war generals could say "we had a good day, we lost 10,000 men but they lost 11,000 men, so we won". Really? nobody won, 21,000 men died, everybody lost. Today a hundred rockets that don't hit their target will be balanced out by a hundred missiles that do score a hit. How many dead children does it take to create equivalence to one dead conscript. What is a fair exchange rate for citizen of a poor country to citizens from a richer country, 1:1, 1:50, 1:200. The old testament says an eye for an eye, it never said mass carnage to make up for being kept awake by air raid sirens. See how hard it is to stop becoming emotionaly involved. Moving quickly on, there is no moral equivalence, each death is unique, each death is as much a tragedy for one side as for the other.

Some music to calm down, this song is about WW1 but its just as relevant to every other conflict since then, its a song of suppressed rage.

 

[W!nston]

I agree there are inequalities in weapons. I agree 2 wrongs do not make a right. I agree the loss of life has been heavier in Gaza than in Israel.

I really don't have an idea how this conflict might be ended.

Does any one have an idea?

 

[dargelos]

John Kerry tried, he really wore himself out and got nowhere. All the thanks he got was to get his phone bugged. If anyone can help, tell them to get on the plane to Tel Aviv.

 

[Shelter]

John Kerry tried, he really wore himself out and got nowhere. All the thanks he got was to get his phone bugged. If anyone can help, tell them to get on the plane to Tel Aviv.

When I read this I really must laugh loudly. Mr. Kerry was very angry and not "amused" that his phone was bugged by the Israelis! :rofl:
Yes I think when I do harm another person (or country or politican) it don't hurt but if the other person (or country or intelligence) will do the same - than it is a scandalous act of furtiveness! So it sounds great for me that the Israeli intelligence agency has done the same to Mr. Kerry as Mr. Kerry and his comrades in Government has done to us!!! Real good friends - aren't they?

 

[dargelos]

A man in Mr Kerry's position has access to unhackable secure phones. Using an ordinary phone instead is a way of saying "you are my friends, I can trust you". We shake hands when we meet someone, originaly it was a way of saying "I am not hiding anything, you are not hiding anything, we are safe together". These are both mere symbols of trust, just a first step. To abuse that trust is an own goal before the match has even kicked off.

 

[Shelter]

Dargelos you are fully right! It is an own goal before the match has even kicked off! Yes you are true! But that it happened to an American politican is an afterwit. The NSA through the American Embassy in Berlin has spied out our Chancellor and high politicans and they can't even say sorry! I think we in Germany are not like in North Korea - I've always thought America and Germany are friends - but way off the mark! Americas trusts nobody - only Americans are good guys every other person from the whole world will be seen at first as criminals! And when I say here "America" I don't mean THE ordinary american people - but the government and their officials. I've many friends in the USA and it is embarrassing to them how their government is acting against their "friends". Are we friends or are we like an occupied people after the war which you only can distrust?

 

[tonka]

Merkel's phone, Kerry's phone.
Does anyone really think real intelligence was gleaned? Of course not. You might get Kerry saying "Bibi is such a little prick". But that not an insight. Everyone know that Bibi is little prick.
Do Kerry and Merkel assume their cell phones are safe? Of course not. And they act accordingly. I expect they use it as a tool. If Bibi is about to go way over the line again, Kerry gets on his cell phone to Washington and says "If Bibi does this, I will twist his little balls off his little midget body and feed them to the fucking sharks!!!". That gets back to Bibi and maybe he rethinks his latest move.

The Mrs Merkel news story is about the news. The news cycle of headlines and drama. The news came out. The German public is OUTRAGED! They demand that she be outraged.
OK. I'm outraged.
She then goes back to doing important things, like running the country and finding ways to rebuild the EU economy.

 

[Shelter]

In German now I would say:"Peng, das hat gesesessen!" (Bang! That hit home!)
But nonetheless Tonka all what you have said here is correct and I'll take it without contradiction.
But to be a little bit outraged is good for the soul and for his own adjudgement - isn't it?
Nonetheless it was a hilarious action! -

 

[Shelter]

But to be serious - just I've heard in the news that the negotiations between Israel and the Hamas again failed. I think and believe both sides are not interested in making peace. Both sides insist on unrealizable conditions for the other side. So every gathering of both ones will be only a dishonest show for the rest of the world. Both ones are warmongers!
But why we must look on this place of the world - that same happens here!!!!

 

[noiraud]

The history of the geographical region is extremely complex. Today's Israel occupies a portion of the original Jewish territory in the region. Prior to the arrival of Islam in the region around the 7th century AD, however, the resident Jewish and Arab populations had already been somewhat marginalised by invading conquerors such as the Roman Empire. Through the first two millenia AD, in fact, the Jewish and Arab populations had equally been dominated and manipulated by governments from outside the region (the British, the Russians, the French, the Americans, and so on).
As a dispassionate observer from outside the region and the religions in question (and yes, that includes Christianity), I have the impression that the rage on all sides is only partially directed at the populations that are being attacked. I think much of the rage is truly for all outsiders to the region -- something about which states like Iran are rather ironically more honest. Arabs, in particular Palestinians, prossibly consider the Israeli populace to be largely "outsiders" since the vast majority of them only immigrated to the region after 1948 and even though it is the Jews' ancestral homeland. The Jewish people perhaps consider the Muslims population to be "outsiders" since they arrived centuries after the area had already been established as a Jewish region.
That said, the Israelis may also be raging against the intolerance their predecessors dealt with elsewhere in the world, such as in Communist Russia and Nazi Germany.
Regardless of all of that, though, I perceive there are three elements at the centre this conflict that, seemingly, can be used to define most any military conflict anywhere in the world: religion, land and -- worst of all -- human beings.
I fear that nothing -- not even a Second Coming (since neither Jews nor Muslims believe there was a First Coming to begin with) -- nothing short of the annihilation of some or all of the parties directly involved, can resolve this situation. Sadly.
Disclaimer: this is only my personal opinion and not a verdict. I sincerely hope.

 

[Shelter]

Noiraud - thank you. A precious contribution to this sad theme.

 

[jaykaytooooo]

Israel defends itself against terrorists who launch their rockets from gaza'an hospitals, mosques, homes, etc. it is done on purpose for the gullible to believe israel is pure evil.

Let me remind those that think israel are brutal killers, Israel is the ONLY country in the middle east who celebrate gay pride with parades, fairs, etc., while muslims execute, torture, stone, brutalize (throw off gay people from tall buildings) their "gays". "Gay pride" in islamic/sharia societies is and will always be nonexistent cuz islamic societies breed barbaric intolerant societies.

I make this point to show israel is a civil society while hamas (and islam in general) in gaza breeds no such society, just barbarism, hate and Destruction.

 

[jaykaytooooo]

As far as "palestinians", namely the palestinian leadership, they are nothing more than arab islamic trash invaders. The ancient extinct philistines, whom they claim lineage to, were most like as i have read in my studies a Mediterranean people (i will try to cite my source on this soon) who inhabited the region temporarily. But, whatever the case, Today, there is no evidence of the philistine culture, language, customs, etc. in todays "palestinians". why? Cuz todays "palestinians" are arabs, who speak arabic, not philistinian or any evidence of it, practice arab islamic culture, in short, ZERO evidence of having ancient philistine traits.

Remember islam allows muslims to lie and deceive to further islamic expansion.