let's talk about the situation in Israel/Ghaza

[tonka]

The Hamas "fighters" hide in their tunnels while encouraging, even celebrating, that the civilians are getting killed in rocket attacks above.
How do you deal with such people?

 

[Shelter]

The Hamas "fighters" hide in their tunnels while encouraging, even celebrating, that the civilians are getting killed in rocket attacks above.
How do you deal with such people?

I don't know to whom you respond or is your question only generic? But nevertheless I will answer. I really don't "deal" with this criminals from the Hamas. The leader of Hamas lives in abundant and prosperity in Katar. He surely is too fainthearted to lead "his" fight against Israel in front and center. It could be possible to loose his "precious" life. So he and his companions rather recruit their "soldiers" from the poorest and uneducated young "angry" Palestinians.
I don't know how or in which way Israel could find a way to the hearts of these young peoples of Palestina or better in this way Gaza. Wouldn't it be possible to change these hateful circulation by trying to help to enhance their personal poor situation? I'll believe there is an old jewish saying: Who saves one single life, saves the whole world (or similar like that)! Wouldn't that be a possibility to drain the hate?

 

[dargelos]

The top man from Hamas lives in comfort, far from danger while his minions live in filthy smelly tunnels. Nothing unusual there, it is the same in every organisation in the world, the boss enjoys opulence, the worker struggles amongst squalor. Tim Cook in the California sunshine while the people who make his phones never see daylight in their sweatshop. Bibi glides around in his bulletproof limo while his callow conscripts shit themselves. Same as it ever was.

The best kind of terrorism is no terrorism at all, of course, but you could do a lot worse than with the Hamas kind. It does what it says on the tin, ie it causes a lot of terror, without doing much killing. The 3000 rockets fired have caused 3 civillian deaths. Not quite as small a risk as being hit by lightning but much less than the risk of being hit by a car.
60 Israeli military losses against approx 900 Hamas military losses. Those stats don't sound like those of a fearsome opponent. Speaking of fearsome opponents, If ISIS get close enough to join in against Israel they will make Hamas look like pussycats. It's quite possible that by being weak enemies, Hamas serve a useful purpose in Bibi's scheme, so he has no incentive to stop the war.
Please prove me wrong.

 

[ritsuka]

Religion is beside the point--and actually, before the partition that violently forced many Palestinians to flee their homes for refugee camps in 1948, Arabs (including Palestinian Christians, Arab Jews, and the Bedouin people) and Jews were living peacefully together on the land, other then some zionist fanatics who were fomenting conflict. They did not need a Jews-only state back then and they obviously don't need it now because anti-semitism has declined all the world over. Israel is a racist colonial apartheid state that has been illegally annexing and occupying Palestinian land for decades before Hamas and their primitive projectiles (they aren't actually rockets) existed.

Palestinians have a right to all of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem as an independent, contiguous, sovereign state. But Israel has intentionally built settlements to block Gaza off from the West bank and has repeatedly poisoned and murdered Gaza over the last five years while starving it's people of adequate food, medicine, rebuilding materials, and any political freedom or agency. Israel as an occupying power does not have a 'right' to murder Palestinian children playing on the beach, bomb hospitals full of sick people, bomb entire apartment complexes killing all the families inside, or bomb UN shelters filled with refugees.

Israel's far-right government is fucking insane; which is why so many young, liberal and secular Jews are leaving Israel every year, because they can't stand the way their culture is going, with lynch mobs marching in the streets chanting 'kill all leftists' and 'kill all arabs.' While Palestine has no army, no navy or air force, Israel sends it's youth to prison if they refuse military conscription. While Israel blockades Gaza, sealing it's borders from land, sea and air, Gazan's quite understandably built tunnels to bring in goods from the outside, which the Egyptian dictatorship managed to seal without a single bomb. This aggression from Israel is all about their undying thirst for more and more Palestinian land and punishing Palestinians for simply existing.

They bombed Gaza's sewage treatment plants, their universities, power plants, when Gazan's already have only 3 hours of electricity on a good day and little-no clean water. Israel in contrast is a wealthy country, most of the so-called rockets from Hamas land in the middle of nowhere, and each time Israel 'mows the lawn' in Gaza, they murder thousands of innocent civilians. As the occupying power, it's their responsibility to choose the just and nonviolent route towards peace, by ending the blockade of Gaza and going back to the 1967 borders, as international law requires them to do. Despite Israeli propaganda, all Palestinian factions would accept this just two-state solution.

Palestinian demands that a ceasefire leads to Gazan freedom are perfectly just and justified. Unlike Israel, Gazans (and not just Hamas) actually have a reason to fight the invading Israeli army, since they are so desperate to breathe. Palestinian's have a good reason to resist occupation, but since they alone have not been able to force Israel to stop it's atrocities and belligerent, entitled annexation of their land, the international movement for boycott, divestment and sanctions exists to to make the cost of Israeli policy too much to bear.

 

[bigsal]

Israel defends itself against terrorists who launch their rockets from gaza'an hospitals, mosques, homes, etc. it is done on purpose for the gullible to believe israel is pure evil.

Let me remind those that think israel are brutal killers, Israel is the ONLY country in the middle east who celebrate gay pride with parades, fairs, etc., while muslims execute, torture, stone, brutalize (throw off gay people from tall buildings) their "gays". "Gay pride" in islamic/sharia societies is and will always be nonexistent cuz islamic societies breed barbaric intolerant societies.

I make this point to show israel is a civil society while hamas (and islam in general) in gaza breeds no such society, just barbarism, hate and Destruction.

Your concept of information is rather unique, one-way, typical of those who justify any kind of violence being perpetrated on the condition that is made only from the so-called "goods".

The fact that Israel is tolerant of the gay community, this is out discussion. But many Israelis do not share the government's policy on the massacre of civilians Palestinian. Among these, a neighbor of mine, born in Israel who lives from some years in Italy, whose grandparents were killed in concentration camps, then the Shoa who lived in the first person.

But he has a conscience and thinks with his mind, without being influenced by the bad part of information, which we can not be said so of many other people, unfortunately.

If you want to inquire further, go Yuotube, you will find many videos of Jews who criticize the indiscriminate violence of Netanyahu.

 

[tonka]

The Jewish people have built a culture over the centuries that is quite remarkable.
But they also keep electing Bibi and his right wing government.
I have no answer for the "What should Israel do?" question. But this certainly isn't working.

 

[jaykaytooooo]

Bigsal and ritsuku, there is no talking to people like you. Your type cannot be reasoned with because your type is way too far radical left winged ideology entrenched in your brain.

So i will not engage.

 

[bigsal]

Bigsal and ritsuku, there is no talking to people like you. Your type cannot be reasoned with because your type is way too far radical left winged ideology entrenched in your brain.

So i will not engage.

Attitude of one who does not want to listen to the arguments of those who think differently.

Unlike of the your choice, I'm sorry not to hear your reasons, because I prefer to give voice to all opinions, even if discordant.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire)

 

[jaykaytooooo]

Bigsal, trust me, i have gone the rounds with far left ideologues. The problem is these people do NOT listen to reason or logic.

Thats why i refuse to engage.

 

[mosaik]

I seems to me NEITHER side really wants peace, not if any concession is required. I think only a third party occupying Gaza, enforcing weapons ban while rebuilding can work. (the Saudi's could do it)

 

[Shelter]

Hi Mosaik - I think that could be a first approach. But if it could work, I doubt that Israel will agree. Israel will name another country for this help and Hamas will refuse. And so the wheel is spinning and spinning and ...........
I think you are fully right neiter side wants peace - and that is something terrible tragic. The simple people if Jews or Palestinians have to suffer because of the criminal obstinacy and stubbornness of their respective leaders.

 

[bigsal]

Bigsal, trust me, i have gone the rounds with far left ideologues. The problem is these people do NOT listen to reason or logic.

Thats why i refuse to engage.

Right, left, forget these partisan alignments and see with your eyes. What happened in Gaza has nothing of ideological.

We are in 2014, the ideologies were popular years ago, before the Internet, though unfortunately we realize that many people prefer to leave to lead their thoughts to others.

 

[ritsuka]

Of course Palestinian gay rights organizations do not agree with jaycockatoo; they see the Israeli occupation as the greatest obstacle to their freedom, not islam, not their own people. And gay Palestinians recognize that Israel doesn't give them any special treatment--they are bombed, stopped at checkpoints, barred by Israel from leaving the occupied territories when they get scholarships to study at universities abroad, and endure the same discrimination as other Palestinians whether they live within Israel (such as being barred from most employment), the occupied territories, or the refugee camps abroad. African asylum seekers (gay or not) living in Israel also face extreme discrimination and racism from the Jewish majority. Israel is by their own design not a tolerant, diverse, equal, or multicultural society, and will never be unless they end the occupation and extend full, equal rights and protections to everyone living within their borders, not just gay Jews (who don't have the right to marry in Israel, either.)

 

[dargelos]

This from wednesday's Guardian;
A poll published by the Israel Democracy Institute found that;
92% of Jewish Israelis believed the war was justified
48% of those questioned thought appropriate force had been used by the Israeli military
06% thought too much force had been used
45% said too little force was used

It's that last figure that won't let me go. The 45% who want more violence, what would it take to satisfy them, how much more suffering before they're happy?

 

[Shelter]

Hi Dargelos - it is hard to believe what you have written here. What do these 45% want? A new genozide in Ghaza? Hamas really is a cancerous ulcer! But why they are like they are? For Israel the Arabs are subhuman beings! And from this attitude no one can expect that the Arabs develop a feeling of love for the Israelis and Hamas has an easy job! If you will kick a dog again and again there will be the day he will bite you! And remember what happened to the Jews in Nazi-Germany. They have been treated als subhumans - every worm war more valuable than these people! And tell me what they have learned from this fate? They only turn the tables because now they are the masters! I know this opinion is not politically correct (anyway in my country of Germany!) but that it is how I am feeling.

 

[Shelter]

Hi jazzeven - in honestly friendship to you but you have not commented my whole text! You are fully right that Israel has learned to defend themselves - but only with the force of weapons? Never with the force of words?! And the loss of lives is only a "collateral damage"? And the statistic said: 45% said too little force was used!That's not reading like "I want only more safety"
And another question to you: how do you think both sides can "settle their differences in a civilized manner?" Which "civilized manner? The Israeli or the Arab civilized manner? So what was at first on earth the hen or the egg?

 

[Shelter]

Thank godness until now we are living in a free world - and in this free world everybody can have an opinion - if this opinion will be right or wrong, politically correct or not - everybody will have the right of its own opinion. Believe me I'm not a big friend of the Arabs or the Moslems or however you will call them - and like you I condemn the Hamas-attacks on Israeli cities and villages. BUT as well I condemn the stubborn attitude of the Israelis (or their government whatever!). And so HATE on one side and HATE on the other side. Once more the question: what was first the hen or the egg? There has been on man in Israel who tried to give the hand of peace to the Arabs or the Palestinians - Prime Minister Rabin. What happened? A fanatic Jew (no Arab or Palestinian!) shot him to death. Was he really alone? Or didn't want the politicans in Israel peace? I think on both sides there is not the volition for peace! Unfortunately! And so in this region there will be never real peace! And believe me too: if there will be on the side of Hamas a man who wants to make peace with Israel - his life would be very quickly come to an end.
Dear Jazzeven sorry but I see this conflict not only from ONE side. Go up to the sky (figuratively spoken!) and look down on both sides and your sight will be extended. In the meantime no side is to be justified. Could we agree in this point? And if not I don't hope that there will be a feud between us! So from my side a big hug to you. And let us dicuss further without hostility! I love it to debate and sometimes I love it too to overdraw - but that will be the rough draft of a good discussion! Right? I'm awaiting your answer! -

 

[Shelter]

My dear friend so we are at least found an reasonable compromise. I beg your very pardon but may I ask you where are you from? I like so much your atmosphere of constructive debate! I love it! And I hope you will understand me! -

 

[dargelos]

What an excellent dialogue. All I can add is that if negotiation went like this in the real world there would be less need to resort to violence.

 

[Shelter]

Thanks Dargelos for your words - it makes me a little bit proud and I hope Jazzeven too. Thank you -