The Greek "tragedy"

[haiducii]

Has anyone tried Grexit vodka?

I'm curious about the taste...

 

[dargelos]

The taste is sour with lingering bitterness. Most drinks give you a hangover next morning, with this one the hangover goes on for years.

 

[Shelter]

We will continuing muddleing - a GREXIT never will happen! So no one must drink this Vodka. But if you like Ouzo, pay attention that you will not chemically burn your throat!

 

[haiducii]

Germany's the problem, not Greece!

And he said further: "We are ready to help Greece if Greece will let oneself to be helped!"

The massive lies and hypocrisy of European politicians - pretending to help when in reality they are starving a people to death - is just disgusting. Greek bailout was ''to save German & French banks''.

 

[gb2000ie]

We will continuing muddleing - a GREXIT never will happen! So no one must drink this Vodka. But if you like Ouzo, pay attention that you will not chemically burn your throat!

It's the continued muddling that is doing all of Europe so much harm. I REALLY hope you're wrong and that it won't drag oooooooooon and oooooooooon and oooooon.

(if I were a gambling man, I'd bet you were right though )

The sooner the rich and powerful of Europe can get it together and offer the Greeks a workable solution based on sound economic theory the better.

Offering them a deal too bad to possibly accept based on dis-proven economic theories isn't going to make anything better!

B.

 

[haiducii]

BBC: Another victim could be Slovenia

 

[Shelter]

Obviously the Greek population has voted in the referendum for "NO". Well they have, if it will be so, voted for poverty, exuberant unemployment. Stupidity and/or ego have won over intelligence and foresight.

But soon they will feel what their vote will mean! Tell me one - only one - communist or socialist state in the world, where the citizen can live in prosperity. All these states have broken down in the past and Greece will have the same fate in the near future.

The Tsipras/Varoufakis camarilla has guided with one's eyes open their people over the edge of the cliff! But I'm sure - they will get their "thank you!"

Well - ok - so bye, bye Greece! Have a happy future life with your new godfather Putin!

 

[gb2000ie]

Obviously the Greek population has voted in the referendum for "NO". Well they have, if it will be so, voted for poverty, exuberant unemployment. Stupidity and/or ego have won over intelligence and foresight.

Based on what economic theory?

Your opinions remain as strong as ever, but still, we see a VERY big asymmetry of facts in this discussion. Only those of us in favour of a fair resolution have bothered to back up our opinions with facts, figures, and references.

Applying logic, anything but a 'No' would have been idiotic.

Lets try again to bring some facts into this:

1) the first Greek bailout was a disaster because the economic projections by the troika were a fantasy. The prediction was a small recession followed by a rapid recovery. Economists pointed out that this was based on bad economics, but the Troika were utterly convinced of expansionary austerity via the confidence fairy. The economists were of course right, and the confidence fairy, well, a fairy tale! The austerity utterly destroyed the Greek economy, the recession was not brief, and there has been no recovery.
2) the Greeks have succeeded in implementing the harshest austerity of any nation during this global crisis. Many in this thread like to pretend that fact is not true, but I have provided the data, and no one has been able to disprove it because, well, facts are facts!
3) the Troika want Greece to keep doing what has been proven to be the wrong thing. Austerity proved to be MUCH more damaging than predicted, but never mind, lets do more! Only an lunatic keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome this time.

Frankly, the Greeks would have been idiots to vote 'Yes'. It takes a staggering amount of ignorance to think it is in the Greek interest to destroy their country even further than the elite of Europe have already forced them to destroy it.

But soon they will feel what their vote will mean! Tell me one - only one - communist or socialist state in the world, where the citizen can live in prosperity. All these states have broken down in the past and Greece will have the same fate in the near future.

Err ... what?

The Greeks did not vote for communism! You really have gone off the edge if you have started to call everything the Germans don't like communism! You sound like Fox News!

The Tsipras/Varoufakis camarilla has guided with one's eyes open their people over the edge of the cliff! But I'm sure - they will get their "thank you!"

Well - ok - so bye, bye Greece! Have a happy future life with your new godfather Putin!

OK - your emptions are clearly in control of your typing fingers now, and your logical brain is clearly off. There is not even a coherent logical point there to argue against!

 

[Sinnerr]

Greece celebrates their "NO" and it reminds me upper board of Titanic ...

Will they celebrate their savings having 20% of previous value after return to Drachma?

 

[gb2000ie]

Greece celebrates their "NO" and it reminds me upper board of Titanic ...

Will they celebrate their savings having 20% of previous value after return to Drachma?

Actually, a devaluation and a Euro exit would do the Greek economy the world of good.

Before the Euro a devaluation was exactly how you dealt with a recession. Because of the Euro, Ireland, Spain, and Greece did not have this avenue open to them, so they could not deal with their own crisis.

The big problem is the Euro removed all the traditional means for a country to counteract a recession - no control over interest rates, and no control over currency rates. If all of Europe goes into recession at the same time, no problem, the ECB does what is right for everyone, and all is well.

But, the Euro's Achilles heal is a so-called asymmetric-shock, where part of the Euro Zone has different needs to the rest. None of the European big-wigs have provided ANY solutions for countries in this situation, and hence, it is the Euro that has turned the Spanish, Irish, and Greek recessions into depressions and crises.

With all this racist greek-blaming, the elite are hoping no one will notice the Euro's massive great big unresloved fundamental flaw.

The Euro made this mess, and the Euro-zone need to figure out how to deal with asymmetric shocks, because this is going to keep happening over and over again.

In case you're wondering, why is America not full of Greeces, Irelands, and Spains? They have a big currency area, and their states have asymmetric shocks, why don't they have catastrophes like we do here in Europe? Simple, they borrow AS A UNION, we don't. Eurobonds would have prevented there being any need for a bailout at all in Greece, Ireland, or Spain. There would have been pain. There would have been recessions. But there was no need to cause calamities like we did.

The Euro is flawed, and the more we blame Greece, the less we focus on the REAL problem, fixing the Euro so we don't have to repeat this destructive racist game every few decades!

B.

 

[haiducii]

Will the EU used force to retain Greece

 

[lweston18]

The Euro made this mess,

The Euro has not made this mess, but the citizens of the western world countries. Every one of the European countries has a government which spends more that it raises by taxation. Every single one. Take Britain for example. It is still after five years trying to reduce a 100 billion pound (120 billion Euro) YEARLY overspend. The interest paid on British debt exceeds the defence budget. Quoting debt in relation to GDP makes it seem less bad. But to clear yearly deficits, so that goverments spend within their means, would require unacceptable levels of taxation and social security contributions. The rest of the EU can just about service their debts and hopefully reduce them. The Greeks cannot and would require endless bailouts. Both Greek governments since 2008 have been unable to introduced reforms which would reduce government spending (eg: on defense), encourage the formation of new enterprises (in Greece this takes unacceptably long) and encourage a more flexible market. Bailouts do not create jobs, but new jobs means less social security spending, increased tax recepts, and increased GDP. Inflating away debt may seem like a good idea, but in the long term it makes a country poor. Look at the reforms taking place in Britain. The pound is very strong against the dollar and the Euro. You can argue about which sector reforms will hit most, but with no reforms everybody will suffer.

 

[Shelter]

Very interesting and intelligent posts here now. But in the moment I'm very busy - but I will try to raise the commotion here later this evening. So until then ...... You'll have a little bit peace here until I'll be back! -

 

[gb2000ie]

it was said (by international experts, German and foreign politicians, historians, commentators, etc) on German TV many times during this crisis that you cannot have a common money without common tax system, common financial administration and common budget procedures ...

Notice what is missing from that list - the most important thing of all, the one the Germans want least, common bonds!

I have a feeling we agree that the Euro project needs finishing - either we give up on it, or, we finish it and turn the Euro area into a genuinely unified economy like the USA.

I would hate to see the convenience of the Euro go away, so, I obviously want a tighter union.

Just to note though, a tighter union does mean not throwing countries under the bus. We can't let Ireland, Spain, and Greece happen each time there is an asymmetric shock in the Eurozone!

Also worth noting is that a common tax system does not mean the tax is the same everywhere in the union. The USA have common federal taxes, but wildly varying state taxes. The only way the Euro could work would be if it were the same, a mix of federal and local taxes, with centralised and decentralised control over the rates.

B.

 

[Shelter]

Frenchgerman honestly I must say that I'll totally agree with your last post here. You will surely be astonished - but yes I do!

 

[noiraud]

tja, was soll ich Dir sagen ... "auch ein blindes Huhn findet manchmal ein Korn" ! ?



(and before someone makes the remark ... I can't translate this German saying ... and I don't know an English equivalent)

Literally translated, this would be: Even a blind hen sometimes finds a grain of corn. Which is perfecly understandable in English, but we do have a proverb which I think is the English cultural equivalent you would be seeking and which certainly can be applied to the whole situation discussed in this this thread: Every dog has his day.

 

[Shelter]

Dancing, singing and celebrating Greeks prove impressivly that there nobody even comes close to the seriousness of the situation. Tsipras and his comrades have agitatorial made a good job. But if the Greeks will likewise dancing in front of empty cashpoints seems very doubtful to me.

Yes I have nevertheless a little bit of compassion with those Greeks who voted for such a Government of Clowns, which have placed their country far away from the bargaining table. Most of all with this political clown Varou-who! But his resignation is the only bright spot in these days. Remember, he called the European Government-Chiefs terrorists and has had in the same second the impudence to ask for more good money. But perhaps the hot Greek sun was a little bit to much for this man. And please remember this man called all European Government-Chiefs terrorist and in the same second he has the nerve to ask these "terrorists" for new good money. Honestly that cannot be normal.

Yes Tsipras, a left-wing activist has won this battle. But remember one win of a battle means not to win a war! Left concepts never ever before have been successful. The majority of the Greeks (61%) has voted for the exit from the Euro-Zone, for the exit of the EU and for the downfall of their own country. That may be sad and bitter - but it is all alone the matter of Greece.

I think Greece is at the moment no more controllable! Will there be at work a gang of amateur actors, which don't know what they are doing? Or are they communist ideologists, which finally want to make their dusty theories into political severity? Tragedy or tomfoolery?

The tragedy will suffer only the little guy on Main Street, the tomfoolery will be played by the government. The EU now must stop this insanity at once. The point is to save Europe from Greece and mostly from this government in Athens.

 

[Gruet98]

Tsipras can always borrow money from the Chinese but he won't cause it's all about debt forgiveness.

With all his talk, Tsipras hasn't shown he can turn Greece around. He hasn't shown that he is worthy of that debt relief, which was already given to them in the past.

 

[Shelter]

Tsipras can always borrow money from the Chinese but he won't cause it's all about debt forgiveness.

With all his talk, Tsipras hasn't shown he can turn Greece around. He hasn't shown that he is worthy of that debt relief, which was already given to them in the past.

I don't know if the Chinese will lend their money to such a plunger!

 

[gb2000ie]

The tiny difference being that nobody outside Germany has to pay for its family politics...

And in fact one problem was that Germany did not tell the Greek to improve and modernize before getting allowed into the Eurozone. The correct way would have been to tell them right at the beginning to stay away. But, well, I guess at that time politicians thought that it would not be a German matter to tell the Greek anything...

Do not forget where much of Germany's wealth comes from - there were massive capital flows from the periphery of Europe to the core in the lead-up to this crisis.

So, it seems deeply unfair that when the union helps Germany they are all for it, but as soon as the union has a down-side, the Germans want to throw their fellow union members under the bus.

The Euro and Europe were in many ways like a marriage of countries. We were supposed to be in it together in good times and in bad. The Germans raked in the cash during the good times, and now they don't want to know about the problems during the bad times.

The selective definition of Union makes me very cranky. Suddenly it's about "them" not "us".

B.