A New Migration Period

[skyward]

None of that is gonna happen...

I agree sniffit. But should it happen, in your opinion? If not, why not.

 

[jazzeven]

It is a great way to score high in the ESC as well. Such a shame that Putin is a homophobe, else he could cash in by dominating that contest with the help of the russian minorities in all former pact states.

Would you apply that statement to the US? If so, why?

The moment, the US arms the US american minority in a foreign country to allow them to keep a civil war on running, it would apply as well. This might have been the case in Cuba, had a counterrevolution ever happened. But historically the demography of the US does not really allow to use that strategy, as their roots are simply not as deep and their culture is based on adaption.

In a way the US makes even the mistake of not thinking ahead this way when it comes to translators in their occupied territories: Instead of generously flying them out to safety, the USA hesitate and will face the consequences the next time they invade a country in their "war against terror" and need to aquire people to work with.

Whatever, the number is a lot less "incredible" when considering that Russia just takes back its own citizens while every alternative would mean losing influence.
Would the USA gain or lose any influence when taking 10 000 refugees or a million? They would just fall further behind in a moral contest of little political significance.

 

[Shelter]

Fact is that this government once more hesitated too long. The current negotiations for a solution should have been held before summer. But then Berlin was still convinced that the treaty of Dublin would cover their asses and that the problem would be solved by the smaller states at the border. And in a way they seem to go back to that policy, which as we all could see, worked so perfectly.

Jazzeven it is sad at heart, but in this special case you made one good point.

 

[Shelter]

Just that he never said that. He was asked by a moderator, whether Putin is a flawless democrat and he just began his answer with "yes".

The moderator asked him and he answered "YES". So what else he meant?
I think to argue about his "Yes" or "Mr. Putin is a flawless democrat" is bean counting.

 

[jazzeven]

The moderator asked him and he answered "YES". So what else he meant?

Just that he did not answer "YES". He answered:
"Well, those are such terms... I believe him and I am convinced he is. That russia is not exactly like he imagines, or even like me or we imagine, has to be understood. This land has 75 years of communisic rule behind it and I'd like to remind fundamental critics to think about from which point on everything went so smoothly in our own country."
It is not bean counting to consider the actual answer instead of just making the question part of a flawed and incorrect quote. In fact repeating that quote over and over again is just one of the reasons why Germany has become Merkelland: Any actual decision, any kind of character, any hint of a profile will be used to destroy the politician behind it. The only politician able to survive the attacks of the media, the opposition and his own party is what I would call The Blob; an amorphic mass which has no recognizable features and therefore gives no hint in which direction it is facing or what it is doing. Instead it just sits there and does nothing except perhaps moving into a different position when the current position stops being the safest alternative.

If people were able to understand more than three words of an answer, we would not have Merkel.

It is just at matter of time until it becomes clear that Schröder, just like Schmidt and Brand, has done many things right and that the price for doing the right thing *always* is also risking to make mistakes. Schröders answer reflects exactly that attitude. Stronger ties to russia could have deescalated the Ukraine crisis a lot. The absence of the new cold war would have given Europe as a whole a much stronger position concerning being the slave of the USA and having to allow industrial espionage on their territory.

But, well, feel free to dismiss that idea by parrotting a false quote.

Edit: Sorry for sounding harsh, but this whole circus of making Schröder the anti-christ just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[skyward]

The moment, the US arms the US american minority in a foreign country to allow them to keep a civil war on running, it would apply as well. This might have been the case in Cuba,

If you are alluding to the Ukrainian civil war, then consider what would have happened if Russia had simply left the Novorossiya people to their own devices: they would have been slaughtered, literally. Just look at the neo-fascist batallions and how the West has not just armed but sent in trainers to aid them.

a moral contest of little political significance

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

 

[skyward]

Refugees start sit-down hunger strike on Hungary-Serbian border - reports
Anon URL

Refugees stuck on the Hungarian-Serbian border have declared a sit-down hunger strike, demanding to be allowed to proceed further into the EU, according to Twitter reports.
Social media reports say refugees stuck on the border are holding banners, saying "No food no water until open border."

 

[skyward]

"Hunger strike... little children w/out food&water as it's getting hotter." @index.hu

Pic by István Huszti

It's interesting that signs etc are usually written in English. They always say 'Germany' 'We want Germany', not 'Deutschland'. Nothing wrong at all with that but just curious as to why.:?

Also, as desperate as these people are... can they really withhold food and even water from their children?

 

[jazzeven]

Just look at the neo-fascist batallions and how the West has not just armed but sent in trainers to aid them.

Which happened after an escalation of the conflict which was possible because of Russia's consistent desinterest in finding a peaceful solution. They made their people an instrument of power, so you can expect a reaction like that. Russia used them to stirr up the problem.
Don't get me wrong: I am not talking about wrong and right here, the point is just, that they are not in any way comparable to refugees from foreign country. They are not comparable to refugees of a conflict the country they are fleeing to is not directly involved in.

"a moral contest of little political significance"
Could you expand on what you mean by this?

It means that no nation gains anything except for moral authority.

 

[skyward]

@Jazzeven

"desinterest in finding a peaceful solution" Re: Minsk II, the US refused to even participate. Until they do, there will be no peace.

"They are not comparable to refugees of a conflict the country they are fleeing to is not directly involved in" Syrian refugees are fleeing to the EU. NATO is directly involved in the conflict. Germany, for example, is a member of NATO.

 

[Shelter]

If people were able to understand more than three words of an answer, we would not have Merkel.

So I'm happy that we have you, which can open our dumb eyes!

Stronger ties to russia could have deescalated the Ukraine crisis a lot.

And you don't believe to Santa Claus?

Did I understand you correct: everyone which is not following your opinion (your SPD-opinion!) isn't worth to be a German? You take the right for yourself to salivate against Mrs. Merkel, but you are losing your self-control if anyone is daring to scratch on the monuments of your SPD stylites?

Calm down dear Jazzeven - we are living in a democracy and there it will happen that you find other opinions than your own. No reason to insult or to declare the others as dumb.

 

[skyward]

Syrian Girl on the lies surrounding the refugee crisis



These are not necessarily my views. But it's both interesting and important to hear the detailed views and analyses of Syrians, whenever we can. You will only get so far towards the truth if you rely exclusively on corporate media.

 

[jazzeven]

"desinterest in finding a peaceful solution" Re: Minsk II, the US refused to even participate. Until they do, there will be no peace.

At this point participating when certain conditions are not met would mean accepting direct russian involvement as a valid measure. I am talking about securing the well so the child does not fall into it, you are talking about who has to dance around it after it happened. Russia was against a deescalation and an Ukranian solution and at every stage actively prevented any progress from being made. This is what brought their people in danger.

"They are not comparable to refugees of a conflict the country they are fleeing to is not directly involved in" Syrian refugees are fleeing to the EU. NATO is directly involved in the conflict. Germany, for example, is a member of NATO.

a) even if that was true, that would not make the refugees German.
b) The Nato protects the border of an ally, there is no involvement comparable to the civil war in Ukraine. To compare Germany's membership in the same organisation which has a member who has a border to the conflict is a lot different than sending modern war machinery and annexing territory by force.

 

[jazzeven]

Did I understand you correct: everyone which is not following your opinion (your SPD-opinion!) isn't worth to be a German?

Not sure where you found that in my post, but then again, it was longer than three words.:thinking:
So, no, you obviously did not understand me correctly.

You take the right for yourself to salivate against Mrs. Merkel, but you are losing your self-control if anyone is daring to scratch on the monuments of your SPD stylites?

When it happens with made up facts, the complete absence of context and the willingness ignore the political cirstances: yes. Also, I think I clearly said that mistakes were made. And that is what I mean: Schröder made mistakes. But what is pointed out are not his actual mistakes, because that would be more complicated than simply making him say positive things about Putin.

Also Merkel is just the prototype. Look at Gabriel, who follows exactly the same concept. He is not quite as lethargic and for that reason less successful, but compared to someone who has an actual political position, no matter whether it is progressive or conservative, Gabriel is just a second-rate Merkel.
The problem is not the opinion, the problem is the celebration of having no opinion at all, while bashing everyone who dares to have a position at all.

And you don't believe to Santa Claus?

Not sure what Santa Clause has to do with diplomacy. But history shows that leader who could work together on a personal level had it easier to find a solution for problems. This is becomes obvious when you see videos and pictures of Kohl and Gorbachev, or Mitterrand and Kohl. Could you imagine someone like Lafontaine in that position? And if you can't - does that now mean that Santa Clause exists?

 

[skyward]

a) even if that was true, that would not make the refugees German.

Any more that Ukrainian refugees are Russian. They are Ukrainians! Except some of them do not wish to countenance attempts to ban their language, accept being reviled and attacked by neo-fascists (armed and trained by...), or live under an US puppet regime.

b) The Nato protects the border of an ally, there is no involvement comparable to the civil war in Ukraine. To compare Germany's membership in the same organisation which has a member who has a border to the conflict is a lot different than sending modern war machinery and annexing territory by force.

NATO has been involved in the Bosnian War‎, the War in Afghanistan from 2001, Croatian War of Independence‎, Cold War, Libyan Civil War, etc. As regards Syria you have French, British, etc. Involvement. Basically NATO is a military organisation dominated by the US. It is often instrumental to US foreign policy. Germany is part and parcel of that entire dynamic. The problem is not Germany's own foreign policy per se, it's the lack of it Your country has largely become a puppet of US foreign policy. If you want to persist with the claim that Germany is truly passive and doesn't support US/NATO aggression, then leave NATO. Otherwise, you are taking in refugees in a similar way to Russia taking in Ukrainian refugees.

As to your other points and your argument in general, let's just say that the Ukrainian war is obviously a civil-war, and further that it is a proxy war. The US backs one side, supplied it with weapons, training, intelligence, and Russia backs the other side. So, as say, while the Franco-German effort (re: Minsk II) to help bring about peace is appreciated, both the US and Russia have to sit down together and negotiate. Otherwise, there will be no peace.

You have already outlined your position reasonably clearly, so there is no need to really continue going deeper into the Ukrainian aspect -that would probably mean a separate thread. We really should keep most of the focus on the topic of the refugees from the Middle-East.

 

[jazzeven]

It is weird how you make no difference between currently invading a foreign country, actively escalating the use of violence, annexing parts of that country and then allowing people the invading force always considered their citizens to the degree that it sees a base of occupying the territory they live on, and that way starting a civil war in Ukraine, to ending a civil war much too late in Bosnia, which already was at its peak before any involvement did happen, in a situation where the UN was just watching the slaughter, because mother Russia looked once more favourable on the butchers and knew it would lose power should they lose. And guess who delivered the weapons used for that conflict... aside from that the conflict now is a different one and the refugees from bosnia are not in a war.
Some distant responsibility is different from an immediate responsibility when people dare to shoot back at the people sent to kill them.

It is an entirely different situation. This makes the million russians going back to russia a liability of russia and the shining beacon of humanity, which Europe and the USA should take as an example, simply does not exist.

 

[skyward]

Again Jazzeven, they are Ukrainians, not Russians! Just because they happen to be Russian-speakers, should not mean they have to forego their identity as Ukrainians.

But, as said, best we leave it at that and re-focus on the current refugee surge from the middle-east. Have any arrived in your area yet? How are they getting on.

 

[skyward]

German riot police smash innocent bystander unconscious during Hamburg clashes


‘Period of tolerance for illegal migrants ends’ – top Hungarian politician

 

[skyward]

Assange on 'US Empire', Assad govt overthrow plans


Pay attention from about a few minutes in where he talks about the US plans to overthrow the government. He mentions material leaked to wikileaks in this regard.

 

[gb2000ie]

Re-defining the word 'racist' to use as some sort of verbal 'club' to influence opinions about me or others who disagree with those who want to see only rainbows and unicorns in this invasion is a brilliant tactic! Touche!

fine - pick another word then - you choose!

The problem is grouping a few billion people into one mass and saying "they are X" and "they are Y". That's a dangerous and de-humanising action that can lead to nowhere but trouble. It leads to "us" and "them", and is always wrong.

At this stage we all get it that saying "Jews are X" is wrong, and "blacks are Y" is wrong, and "gays are Z" is wrong, and yet, right here on a gay board, people are happy to talk about Muslims in that way.

I don't care what you call that kind of dangerous nonsense, but I will speak out against it everywhere I see it.

B.