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W!nston

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fine - pick another word then - you choose!

The problem is grouping a few billion people into one mass and saying "they are X" and "they are Y". That's a dangerous and de-humanising action that can lead to nowhere but trouble. It leads to "us" and "them", and is always wrong.

At this stage we all get it that saying "Jews are X" is wrong, and "blacks are Y" is wrong, and "gays are Z" is wrong, and yet, right here on a gay board, people are happy to talk about Muslims in that way.

I don't care what you call that kind of dangerous nonsense, but I will speak out against it everywhere I see it.

B.

fine - pick another word then - you choose!

How about 'suspicious' of ISIS? ISIS has made it's intentions crystal clear. They intend to conquer the Muslim World and put it under their control. They are moving along nicely with that plan. They announced a covert force of their agents is using this migration to infiltrate European countries they could not gain access to by legal means (remember the Trojan Horse metaphor in one of my earlier posts that you had so much fun with?).

In the scenes of refugees it is impossible not to see the majority of them are young men with some families mixed in along side them. Unless you have your head in the sand and don't want to see them.

Only a fool would not have a great deal of suspicion about the dangers from foreigners forcing themselves into civilian populations. Do you really think ISIS agents will be wearing uniforms and carrying ISIS ID cards? Who do you think commits heinous acts of terrorism? Soldiers in uniform?

Stop believing this is only about helping poor refugees fleeing war. Start thinking with your head a little bit more and your heart a little bit less.

I know you are very intelligent. I know you have an enormous heart and want to help the helpless. But there is great danger in accepting all of these undocumented young men and women. Danger to your family and friends and fellow countrymen and fellow Europeans. Don't you care just a little bit about them? Or do you only care about foreigners who may or may not be what they seem?
 

Shelter

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How about 'suspicious' of ISIS? ISIS has made it's intentions crystal clear. They intend to conquer the Muslim World and put it under their control. They are moving along nicely with that plan. They announced a covert force of their agents is using this migration to infiltrate European countries they could not gain access to by legal means (remember the Trojan Horse metaphor in one of my earlier posts that you had so much fun with?).

In the scenes of refugees it is impossible not to see the majority of them are young men with some families mixed in along side them. Unless you have your head in the sand and don't want to see them.

Only a fool would not have a great deal of suspicion about the dangers from foreigners forcing themselves into civilian populations. Do you really think ISIS agents will be wearing uniforms and carrying ISIS ID cards? Who do you think commits heinous acts of terrorism? Soldiers in uniform?

Stop believing this is only about helping poor refugees fleeing war. Start thinking with your head a little bit more and your heart a little bit less.

I know you are very intelligent. I know you have an enormous heart and want to help the helpless. But there is great danger in accepting all of these undocumented young men and women. Danger to your family and friends and fellow countrymen and fellow Europeans. Don't you care just a little bit about them? Or do you only care about foreigners who may or may not be what they seem?

Great post Sniffit - thank you! :thumbs up::thumbs up:
 

jazzeven

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ISIS has made it's intentions crystal clear.
Which is the first thing which should make you suspicious: a terror group working secretly shouts out their plans about some undercover invasion in tv.
In the scenes of refugees it is impossible not to see the majority of them are young men with some families mixed in along side them. Unless you have your head in the sand and don't want to see them.
Nobody denies that, just the conclusion is wrong. This does not mean they are soldiers trying to attack the west. Much more plausible is that families cannot afford the transportation and send the member of their family most likely to succeed to find a new home and to get in a position in which he can afford the family to enter the country legally. Women and children get left behind because travelling is considered to dangerous for them.
Who would you send to accomplish that goal? Teenage girls? The grandparents?
Do you really think ISIS agents will be wearing uniforms and carrying ISIS ID cards?
That would be silly. Not quite as silly as thinking that ISIS soldiers would wait in line until they get registered just to acquire in some unknown manner weapons and commit crimes at some village in the darkest corner of Brandenburg.

If there is any increased danger, then it derives from the subcultures which will come into existence, which will be able to absorb people without perspective (very much the same principle as neo-nazis) and give them the opportunity to add "meaning" to their life. This does not get decreased by unfounded suspicion. Rather the opposite. Which brings us back to the beginning - why should ISIS shout out their plans?

See, that happens when people use their heads.
 

gb2000ie

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How about 'suspicious' of ISIS? ISIS has made it's intentions crystal clear.

Err ... you do know I was complaining about people generalising about MUSLIMS, not about people talking about ISIS right?

Your reply makes it sound like you think I've been standing up for ISIS, I bloody well have not!

To be clear - it's OK to say bad shit about a political/terrorist group who's stated aims are deplorable. No one is born an ISIS leader, you have to choose to climb that greasy poll.

What's not OK is generalising about a few billion people just because they belong to the same loose grouping of religions!

Westerners like to pretend Muslims are somehow all on the same page in way we all know Christians aren't. I think some elements of the media like to present things that way because the reality is less frightening, and MUCH too confusing for their audiences to understand - much simpler to just pretend they are all the same, and all out to get us as this massive united force.

B.
 

W!nston

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Well, once again you side stepped the issue. You have yet to speak to the inherent danger of allowing anyone from a war-zone to claim refugee status and welcoming them into a civilian population. You just continue to harp on your perception of my apparent 'racist' views. It's an often used tactic to garner support while not replying to the core issue which is the danger of letting millions waltz across borders without question.

Are you a politician in real life?

What do you think the odds are that there are infiltrators in the millions coming into Europe?

What should be done about it?
 

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Germany, which is absorbing by far the largest number of refugees, is reaping the results of its own reluctance to engage abroad and its failure, as the leading country in the European Union, to galvanize fellow member states against the mass atrocities of Syria’s dictator, Bashar al-Assad — crimes that fueled the refugee crisis and helped the rise of the Islamic State.
In recent years two successive German foreign ministers have warned against engagement in Syria and against arming moderate parts of the opposition. The results were predictable: While Mr. Assad has been propped up by Russia, Iran and Hezbollah, and while the Islamic State has seen radical Islamists from Europe and elsewhere rallying to its flag, the moderate forces, which should have been natural allies of the West, have been crushed.
Berlin has repeatedly argued that Western intervention of any kind would just make the situation worse. But Germany and the United States failed to understand that not acting was itself a form of action, and that it has led directly to the battlefield escalation and refugee outflows that the West tried to avoid.

It was not for a lack of alternatives. In 2013 one of Germany’s most seasoned diplomats, Wolfgang Ischinger, and others warned that Syria risked becoming another Balkan crisis, and advocated a no-fly zone inside Syria and humanitarian corridors. Mr. Ischinger, hardly a hawk, even called for limited military intervention to force a diplomatic solution, as was done in Bosnia. Needless to say, the German government disagreed, opting instead for a diplomatic approach, without the military teeth.
The spread of the Islamic State and the beheading of American citizens last summer set off a fierce debate in the United States about the limits and the costs of President Obama’s policy of disengagement. Unfortunately, the refugee crisis has not caused a similar reckoning in Germany so far.

After World War II, Europeans grew accustomed to the United States’ taking the lead in addressing security threats in and around Europe. That has nurtured a complacency in Europe’s foreign and security posture, the dangers of which have now been fully exposed. With Washington unwilling to act, Europe could no longer pretend that someone else would step in, as happened so often in the past.
The Syrian conflict, and the resulting refugee crisis, should serve as a reminder that Germany’s foreign policy doctrine of recent decades, a much softer version of the Obama doctrine, urgently needs a reassessment. It would be too much to expect Berlin to become a confident military power in the foreseeable future. Even limited intervention in Syria to enforce a no-fly zone and thereby push for a political settlement always was a tall order, given Germany’s limited capabilities.
Nor can the world be content with having Germany habitually shy away from military action. Working with France, Britain and other European countries, Germany should have helped to forge a European response to the Syria crisis when it became clear that the United States wasn’t prepared to step in.

This probably won’t be the last time that Germany will be called upon to show more proactive leadership. President Obama’s past reluctance to act in the Middle East might only be the first phase in a long-term American withdrawal from the region because of its growing energy independence.
And given political volatility in this part of the world, Syria might not be the last country to slide into a brutal civil war. Indeed, today Central and Western Europe is surrounded by a belt of insecurity ranging from Ukraine in the east to Libya and parts of sub-Saharan Africa in the south. So Europe had better get its act together, before waves of refugees pouring into the Continent become not a crisis, but a chronic condition.
 

gb2000ie

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What do you think the odds are that there are infiltrators in the millions coming into Europe?

The chances of at least a few out of the hundreds of thousands (not millions) trying are high.

The chances of them succeeding in getting in are lower - immigrants are not just let in, there is a process, and a big part of that process is a security screening. It can't be perfect, but it still helps.

The chances of any militants that get through succeeding in planning and executing an attack are lower again - European police have a good (not perfect, but good) record of thwarting attacks before they happen.

Yes, ISIS are trying to get us, that's what they do!

Should we let them turn us into animals who do not help fellow humans in need? Or should we retain our humanity, and do the right thing, while also doing our best to control the risks?

My vote is FIRMLY for the latter.

What should be done about it?

See above.

B.
 

W!nston

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I hope you are right.

Time will tell.
 
S

skyward

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Here's an interesting breakdown of the main countries that have taken in the refugees and how many they have taken, in terms of refugees per capita:

refugees_per_thousand.jpg
 

jazzeven

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The spread of the Islamic State and the beheading of American citizens last summer set off a fierce debate in the United States about the limits and the costs of President Obama’s policy of disengagement.
First of all, most of this is still the result of Bush's failed foreign policy. This clearly shows the limit of military intervention.
And second: Ever wondered what reaction the IS expects to receive when beheading american citizens? What is the reaction terrorists (and such acts are acts of terror as their direct result has no direct strategical significance) want to generate? They want engagement. They want US american soldiers on their soil. They want an enemy who strikes back. In the best case a moron like Donald Trump, who runs around talking about nuclear strikes. They want to look like a martyr. This way they will have a constant influx of minions. ISIS is a hydra. Simply trying to go for her head won't defeat her. Obama knows this too well. But since the general public is so easy to fool, some president will most likely walk into that trap and sacrifice a few thousand lives for making a good impression.
 

Stonecold

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Allowing millions of Syrians and others from the Muslim Middle East into Europe will end up a catastrophe for Europe, and therefore for the West.
It is not as if Europe has no experience with large numbers of Muslim immigrants. And the experience has been largely negative. Most European countries are bad at assimilating people from other cultures, especially from Muslim cultures. And large numbers of people from Muslim cultures are bad at assimilating into non-Muslim cultures.

Many Muslim immigrants in the UK, France and Sweden live in Muslim ghettoes and have not assimilated. Moreover, and of particular importance, children of the immigrants -- the ones born and raised in European countries -- are usually the most radical and anti-Western. It is worth recalling that the 9/11 terror attack on America was planned by Muslim immigrants living in Germany. Muhammad Atta, the leader, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, Ziad Jarrah, Said Bahaji and Marwan al-Shehhi had lived in Germany for between five and eight years respectively. Bahaji was born in Germany.

So, then, why would any European leader assume that things will turn out better with a million or more new Muslim immigrants from the Middle East? Or assume that the number will stop at 800,000?
And on what moral basis can the EU object to bringing in the million and a half mostly non-Muslim Nigerians who have fled their homes due to Boko Haram terror and the Islamist government war in that country?

Europe means well in taking in a million refugees from the Middle East. But when good intentions trump experience and wisdom, you're asking for trouble -- in this case, civilization-threatening trouble.

First, many of the children of these immigrants will not remember Assad or ISIS and will resent their likely inferior socioeconomic status and lack of full integration into European society. They will then cause havoc in Europe.

Second, the economic growth and unemployment rates of the EU countries -- including Germany -- are not robust enough to handle a vast number of newcomers.

And as the British writer Janet Daly pointed out in The Telegraph, what about "the pressures on their hospitals and GPs' surgeries, and of shortages of housing and school places"?

Third, it is as certain as night follows day that Islamic State and other terror groups will place terrorists among the refugees coming into Europe.

Fourth, as a result of the three arguments above, some European countries will be threatened by far-right political movements that will arise in opposition to the threat to their national identity, values and economy.
None of this means Europe and America should do nothing. Indeed, it was precisely Europe and America doing nothing about Assad that helped to create this horror.

The West should supply the good guys in the Muslim Middle East -- the Kurds -- with vast amounts of military hardware. And we should spend -- and demand that rich Arab states spend -- upward of a billion dollars to help feed and clothe Syrians who flee to neighboring countries. One day, after all, the Syrian civil war will end, and they can again be financially aided to return home. Then real good will be done. And Europe will be spared the choice of Islamization or civil war.
 
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skyward

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If you believe ISIS is a HUGE, savage threat then you have to willing to swallow your pride and work with others, even if you personally don't like them.

Who were the Allies during WWII?

Think about it.
 
S

skyward

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Btw, has anyone seen the latest from charlie hebdo, mocking the young drowned boy?

How low can you go.
 

jazzeven

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Btw, has anyone seen the latest from charlie hebdo, mocking the young drowned boy?
They did not mock the boy, they were satirical reflections of the whole situation. Very dark ones admittedly, but as it seems to be Charly Hebdo style, cartoons one should read within the context they were made, intended to be more bitter than funny.
 

Stonecold

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jazzeven wrote
First of all, most of this is still the result of Bush's failed foreign policy. This clearly shows the limit of military intervention.
I agree Bush is to blame for a lot of this. Military intervention of the Vietnam Iraq type has bad limits.
It doesn’t matter how many troops you have if you lack the will. To win a war, you have to be willing to kill the enemy, his wives, his children and his goats. Otherwise he just waits you out and wears you down.

You don’t have to get him to put down his gun. You have to break his will to fight.
This is the type of war the US will fight against ISIS
I hate to see this happen but it is what is coming, especailly if Isis hits the American homeland. Trump is talking Neutron bombs which limit radiation.
 

jazzeven

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You have to break his will to fight.
By killing everyone. And the everyone in the neighbour country, because they start to sympathisize with the victims of your genocide. And at some point Russia, because you attack one of their allies on the way. All this while losing all own allies who are still at least in parts human.
I hate to see this happen but it is what is coming, especailly if Isis hits the American homeland.
I am facinated by that fear. The USA are constantly ploughing the globe with their bombs, but still there is the fear that someone could overpower them in the blink of an eye. That fear allows small ISIS to remote control the whole nation. Obviously they have already won.

Handle it like grown-ups. The IRA hit the UK constantly and still they did not piss their pants at the mere thought of it. The RAF had its killing spree through Germany, and still we were capable of balancing the measures with the costs. Spain and France have their seperatist movements and they live with it. What makes the USA so special that they would have the right to genocide in that situation?
Trump is talking Neutron bombs which limit radiation.
That makes him appear much smarter. Because neutron bombs are so much more precise, won't hit innocents and are morally so much more justifiable... Total game changer indeed...:rofl:
 

jazzeven

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Here's an interesting breakdown of the main countries that have taken in the refugees and how many they have taken, in terms of refugees per capita
What are the exact definitions? What the time frame? Who counts as a refugee? And what does "taken" mean in that context?
And on a side note: have you seen where Russia ranks?:p
 
S

skyward

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@stonecold

Are you saying that Donald Trump is in favour of using 'tactical' nukes? Ie the ones that in theory can kill populations but leave the infrastructure intact. Even if that is achieved, the US would officially be worse than ISIS.

Before even hinting at the possibility of using any kind of nuclear weapons, please first type Fallujah deformities into google search. Then see how you feel.

What the US did in Fallujah is unforgivable. It can never be forgiven. It needs to be fully acknowledged. A large amount of the weapons used in the assault contained depleted uranium.

A must watch:


Warning - not for the faint-hearted:
 
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