The Greek "tragedy"

[Shelter]

Here I'm coming with a new thread from which I think it will be again very controversial. As well I think it will be a thread for people from the EU because others perhaps are non-involved in this theme.

So - do you think that the new Greek government is doing right in their manners to the money lenders? Most of all in their manners towards Germany?
Will it really be correct to give our government and the EU the finger and claim in the next minute more millions of Euros for a totally ramshakled nation?

Please don't misunderstand me - nothing against the Greek people - but all against the totally corrupt leadership of all Greek governments since the war.

They have lied from start to finish and they cheated with they cooked the books when they tried to enter the EU. And now, because they have lived in the lap of luxury without thinking on tomorrow, no money anymore.

Now the taxpayers (mostly from Germany) shall give more money for these cheaters. And what is the best - these dudes don't ask for money no they demand cheeky that we have to give them the money so that they can live furthermore in the lap of luxury without doing anything to pay back someday their debts. As Mr. Varoufakis (the sassiest of these new government gang) said.

They are demanding a debt cut!!!!
So let me ask you something: I'll borrow money from you, but I don't pay back - than I'll borrow more money from you and once more more money. Then is coming the point I say I can't pay it back and I'll demand from you that you will renounce on a debt redemption. But in the same moment I'll demand from you again more money for me because I cannot stop my luxury life. And you now I'll never will pay back anything. Will you give me this money? Or would you say that I'm not very clear in my head?

And again - no bad words against the normal Greek. He has very hard to fight to survive.

And everything what the EU is demanding from Greece to end this crisis will be answerd with the Varoufakis-finger.

Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have had such crisis as well. And they have tried with all of their own power to get again butter under their feets (as we say here in Germany). What would that be for an insult towards these nations if now the EU (and mostly Germany) will allow Greece a debt-cut. It would be a mega injustice towards these other nations who have tried it by themselves to come out of their debts.

Greece refuses to every austerity program - they want to live as ever before and others shall pay for them.

Well and now I'll wait for your answers. Perhaps again a shitstorm :devil: ?

 

[gb2000ie]

Shelter - your understanding of the economics is naive at best. You are offering a simplistic interpretation of the very complex economics at play that makes Germany out to be a saint, which it most certainly is not, and the Greeks out to be devils, which they most certainly are not either.

It would take me 100 pages to bring you from where you are to a full understanding, and I really don't have the time to be an economics professor!

What I will say is that the root of this problem is the Euro - it is a currency union without a fiscal union. This means that when the crisis struck, it was in Germany's interest to have HIGHER interest rates, but Ireland's, Spain's, Greece's, Portugal's and others' interest to have LOW interest rates. You can't have high and low rates at once, so someone has to win. The someone is always the same - Germany.

During the boom capital flowed from the periphery to Germany, helping it keep deficits down thanks to a healthy trade balance, then, when things go south and it's time for Germany to do it's part and help the rest of Europe - nothing - Germany gets what it wants, and we can all fuck off and suffer for a decade. Germany is a bully - it gets all the benefit of a single currency, and refuses to pay any price. Utterly un-fair. It should be give-and-take in a true union.

The ECB, under the influence of Great Britain & Germany adopted a controversial an un-orthodox theory of expansionary austerity. The theory was that through the magic of market confidence, massive spending cuts would not cause recessions, but would cause growth. That was nothing short of fantasy, and that fantasy was the underpinning of the first Greek Bailout. The Greeks were promises that if they cut back DRASTICALLY, their economy would recover. They did. They cut spending SPECTACULARLY, and what did all that austerity do? It caused a massive recession of course.

The Germans are still living in the fantasy world where you get out of recessions with austerity. Facts be damned. We've tried this for 8 years and it hasn't work, so let's do MORE of the same!!!

In the past, before the Euro and the fiction of expansionary austerity, there were two approaches to getting out of recessions:

1) devalue your currency - only possible if you have your own, or if everyone agrees. The Greeks do not, and the Germans will not.
2) deficit spending - when an economy is stalling, interest rates are always LOW. That makes it cheap to borrow. Governments borrow, they spend the money on infrastructure, putting people to work, making the country better, and getting the economy flowing again. Once the economy is back on its feet you run surpluses to make up the deficits you ran during the bust. The Greeks have been forced to do the inverse of that - to cut cut cut as their economy ground to a halt. They stamped on the economic brake with a gun to their heads while the economy was already grinding to a halt, and all on the promise that stamping on the brake would make the economy go faster.

The facts are in, but the German people, the German government, and the ECB, have their collective fingers in their ears, and are singing 'la la la la la'.

Meanwhile, Ireland has suffered horribly for a decade, so has Spain, and the poor Greeks have been roggered by a prize leek!

But, by all means pretend Ireland was a success, and that the Greeks should just do what we did, and that Germany is perfect. Fuck facts. Fuck reality, if we just will it hard enough it'll happen!

If you think I'm talking bollox - I have not said anything Nobel Prize Winning Economist Paul Krugman has not been saying since this whole mess started almost a decade ago. I may not be a professional economist, but he most certainly is.

You do realise you are playing with fire here of course? 98% of Germans know nothing about economics and are flying on pure emotion here. I bet this thread will be very low on facts, very high on offensive racial stereotypes, and CRAMMED with righteous anger from rich nations who are busy fucking over poor nations.

As an educated victim of this fucking over, I'm going to have plenty to say to anyone who pretends Germany is a saint.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Also - why the "scare quotes" around tragedy?

Do you have no empathy at all? Would you like to suffer through an economy where ONE IN FOUR can't get work? One family in four has no income and has to try somehow, some way, to live, educate their kids, and get the healthcare they need.

You force people to live in that hell too long and you will create extremists.

Germany is ruining the lives of millions. I'm not sure how you can feel Germany is the victim here. Ordinary Irish, Spanish, and Greeks know they are suffering at ECB & German hands. I'm not sure the German people undertand their role in all this.

The European project was supposed to be give-and-take. Germany got rich off us, now we should just fuck off. Bollox to that!

B.

 

[Shelter]

GB isn't it great and wonderful that there are the Germans - the devils in this world. A whole country of devils who cannot await to see the rest of Europe on his knees. And isn't it wonderful to have an enemy image on which you can always push off your own inability????

Will you be too one of these people which rampaged some days ago through Frankfurt/Main. "Fighters" against the ECB which destroyed personal property from normal Frankfurters. Oh how brave, how brave! That will surely save the Greeks!

And never I've said that Germany or we Germans are "Saints". Where and on which place you have read that from me. But we are good at the figures - the Greek politicans aren 't. They have lived beyond their means - and we shall be the guilty ones? Liars and impostors will bust one day! Impudence not always will win. Tsipras and his absolutely impossible Varoufakis promised their voters a heaven on earth. But without money there will be nothing than dirt! And I think if they will tell their fellow countrymen the whole truth about their corrupt system - we had new fugitives here - the whole Greek political caste from left to right! They are not even in a position to collect correct the taxes. They pay in many, many cases three and four retirement benefits for one person! And too for long dead persons! I don't need to have a study of economy to see that there is running everything wrong!
And most of all they are not willing to change.

The situation in Greece is not the guilt of Germany but from totally corrupt leaders of this country! Let them go to Putin!

 

[Otage]

I hate the fact that Finland joined to EU. Like gb2000ie mentioned about devaluation, it has been many times the saviour of Finnish economy too, and now it's just not bossible, and many of the EU legislations has just been a burden to many entrepenours. And now days politicians play on the bag of the Union, whoring for better seats there, no matter the price for Finlands own well being. Though we are ok atm, the EU certainly hasn't increased Greeks(Greeces?) options for revaving their economy.

But I bet I even wrote the entrepenours wrong here, and I have a huge gap in economic vocabulary in english, so would be kinda troublesome starting to make my point as clear as I would like to. But I wouldn't blame greek politicians for lying and stealing, I mean isn't it obvious anyways? Not because they're greek, but because they are politicians. Same goes for german politicians and others.

 

[W!nston]

As Shelter said this discussion is one mostly for Europeans and to echo GB's comment "I may not be a professional economist" but I can't help but think there is enough blame in this crisis to give everyone involved their fair share.

I would guess the common people in all countries who work hard for little reward compared to the top 1% are not responsible for economic failure but they do suffer the consequences 1,000,000 times more than the 1%. The struggle to survive is something all of us in the 99% have in common.

Emotions run high when one is struggling to keep one's head above water or to keep the boat from sinking further. It's human nature to point fingers but I think the German people are hard working, salt of the earth good people just as the Irish, Italians, Spanish, Greeks and all the other EC citizens.

Just be thankful you live where the political system is open to more than 1 party with 2 houses. Your vote can, under the right cirstances, change the future course of your government whereas our course is eternally locked on a future where the gap between the 1% and the 99% grows exponentially.

I love you both Shelter and GB. I hate to see harsh words between my friends. I did notice Shelter refrained from the use of expletives whether by intention or by a lack of knowledge in the use of English expletives. :rofl:

 

[Otage]

As Shelter said this discussion is one mostly for Europeans and to echo GB's comment "I may not be a professional economist" but I can't help but think there is enough blame in this crisis to give everyone involved their fair share.

I would guess the common people in all countries who work hard for little reward compared to the top 1% are not responsible for economic failure but they do suffer the consequences 1,000,000 times more than the 1%. The struggle to survive is something all of us in the 99% have in common.

Emotions run high when one is struggling to keep one's head above water or to keep the boat from sinking further. It's human nature to point fingers but I think the German people are hard working, salt of the earth good people just as the Irish, Italians, Spanish, Greeks and all the other EC citizens.

Just be thankful you live where the political system is open to more than 1 party with 2 houses. Your vote can, under the right cirstances, change the future course of your government whereas our course is eternally locked on a future where the gap between the 1% and the 99% grows exponentially.

I love you both Shelter and GB. I hate to see harsh words between my friends. I did notice Shelter refrained from the use of expletives whether by intention or by a lack of knowledge in the use of English expletives. :rofl:

We have three partys, and there is really no difference between them, and people are like sheep, unable to think for themselves. I mean I like it we have things quite steady, but is no wonder. The amount of byrocratics and rules... I mean many people even at work don't dare to put in action very small obvious solutions to very easy pointless broblems, without asking permission, or thinking that are they "qualified" to do so. Red traffic light burns in dark, open and desolate area at straight road, but I'll wait cause the light is red. If it doesn't change it's colour in half an hour, maybe I dare to go. Or maybe if someone goes first. This ship should at least get a severe leak, so that it would wake the people up:butslap:

 

[Shelter]

I did notice Shelter refrained from the use of expletives whether by intention or by a lack of knowledge in the use of English expletives. :rofl:

Perhaps both is correct!

 

[Shelter]

Sometimes humor has a way of getting to the truth.

Otori that's wonderful! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[W!nston]

That is fabulous Otori! I had to watch it 3 times... first time to enjoy the music; second time to pause on each caption to understand the words, lol; and third time to enjoy the music and appreciate the message.

You're right. Sometimes humor communicates like nothing else can.

 

[Shelter]

But I wouldn't blame greek politicians for lying and stealing, I mean isn't it obvious anyways? Not because they're greek, but because they are politicians. Same goes for german politicians and others.

Dear Otage - at first I've not said that Greek politicians are "stealing". But I've said they are LIARS and IMPOSTORS. When Greece 1981 came into the EU they have cooked the numbers of their national finances. And that was the first step of their downfall. The first Greek Prime Minister who killed his own homecountry was Andreas Papandreou. Incidentally he was from the socialist PASOK party!!!! When he came to power the government debt was barely 30% of the national output. When he left his office in 1990 it reached more than 80%. Simply a Socialist! At no period Socialists or Communists would be good at figures! And that should be the guilt of Germany????

But you are totally right that lying is too a characteristic trait of every politician - and too from the German politicians.

 

[gb2000ie]

The situation in Greece is not the guilt of Germany but from totally corrupt leaders of this country!

You can believe that if you like, but it is a fantasy.

It is not ALL the fault of the Germans, and the Greeks are not blameless - their governments have been superbly inept for decades. But, the Germans are NOT innocent, and that are NOT victims.

To make the arguments clearer, lets leave the Greeks out of it completely, and just look at Ireland or Spain. Both countries that were running budget surpluses until the crisis!

Ireland got fucked by the ECB+German insistence that we turn the debts run up by our banks into national debt, and then solve the newly created national debt problem by trying to expand our economy through contraction. When Ireland gave up its currency to join the Euro, our Central bank lost the ability to manage our fiscal affairs - our central bank cannot devalue, print money, or lower interest rates, precisely the things that should be happening a massive recession. We surrendered all that power to the ECB, which does exactly what Germany tells it to do, and they fucked us over. The ECB is supposed to be the lender of last resort for European banks, not the Irish tax payer. We got utterfuly fucked, and Germany is not the only villain in the piece, but the German government most certainly is a villain in the piece.

The economic theory behind the Irish bailout was bollox - end result, exactly as predicted by Krugman et al before it happened, a decade of needless suffering for the Irish people.

The Greeks were inept before the got fucked, so it's easy to pretend the didn't get fucked and all that happened was that they continued to be inept. No - they got fucked, and actually became LESS inept. They are now running large surpluses, not deficits, but the Germans insist they run MORE surplusses, and kill their economy even more, put more people out of work, put more lives at risk, and increase the change of extremists gaining power in Europe.

I understand the difference between the actions of the German government and the morals of individual Germans. I am not saying Germans are evil. I am saying the German government fucked over Spain, fucked over Ireland, and is continuing to fuck over Greece.

I also think 98% of EVERY population is economically illiterate, so it's very easy to fool them. The German people don't understand what is going on, they've just been convinced they are saints and the Greeks are sinners.

It's MUCH more complicated than that.

B.

 

[Shelter]

Well GB perhaps you will have right with the one or the other assertion. I'm truly not very close to Angela Merkel or Wolfgang Schäuble and I was not made private to their thoughts or purposes. But I can see that millions and millions of Euros are sent to Greece, which are nothing more than waterdrops into a sponge. And here for instance in Germany the money is missing for the renovation of schools, streets and so on and so on. I'll pay my taxes because I know that this money will make my country good running - but I don't want to pay my taxes for a country where it is wasted.

And perhaps it was a great, or better a very great, mistake to launch the €. As well I think the European Parliament in Brussels is a very great mistake. The individual countries in western Europe are loosing their individuality through a totally obscure authority.

But on the other hand - do you think that all of our individual homecountries here in Europe could survive each by themself? I think that finally the globalization has forced us to stand together.

 

[gb2000ie]

Well GB perhaps you will have right with the one or the other assertion. I'm truly not very close to Angela Merkel or Wolfgang Schäuble and I was not made private to their thoughts or purposes.

And perhaps it was a great, or better a very great, mistake to launch the €. As well I think the European Parliament in Brussels is a very great mistake. The individual countries in western Europe are loosing their individuality through a totally obscure authority.

But on the other hand - do you think that all of our individual homecountries here in Europe could survive each by themself? I think that finally the globalization has forced us to stand together.

The problem is the Euro is only half-done.

What is the difference between the Euro and the Dollar?

In America, the Dollar serves the average needs of all the states because there is one central bank and fiscal policy for the entire currency area.

In Europe we have a single currency, but not single fiscal policy. The ECB is not serving the average interest of the member states, it is serving Germany's interests, and the rest of us just have to suck it up. When the Bundesbank want higher rates, the ECB obliges, when Ireland, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. need lower rates, we can go pound sand.

We need either no monetary union, or tighter monetary union, not this half-way-house monetary union we have at the moment.

As for the EU as a whole - I am a BIG fan of the idea of a united Europe, but that means everyone shares in the good times AND the bad times. German only seems to want to share in the good times, and to leave everyone else in the lurch during the bad times.

The EU also has a MASSIVE democratic deficit. The only European institution we get to elect is the parliament, and they have almost no power. The real power lies with the commission and the council of ministers. The people making decisions in Europe can act entirely independent of the wishes of Europeans because they cannot be booted out of office. That kind over power without accountability is a recipe for bad government, and the EU is a FULL of bad government!

I'm not anti-Europe, or anti-German, I'm anti-the EU bureaucrats, anti-the ECB, anti-the German government, and anti-the British Government. Those institutions are utterly miss-managing this depression.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

Some food for thought about Saintly Germany: http://refhide.com/?http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/the-european-outlier/

 

[Otage]

Well GB perhaps you will have right with the one or the other assertion. I'm truly not very close to Angela Merkel or Wolfgang Schäuble and I was not made private to their thoughts or purposes. But I can see that millions and millions of Euros are sent to Greece, which are nothing more than waterdrops into a sponge. And here for instance in Germany the money is missing for the renovation of schools, streets and so on and so on. I'll pay my taxes because I know that this money will make my country good running - but I don't want to pay my taxes for a country where it is wasted.

And perhaps it was a great, or better a very great, mistake to launch the €. As well I think the European Parliament in Brussels is a very great mistake. The individual countries in western Europe are loosing their individuality through a totally obscure authority.

But on the other hand - do you think that all of our individual homecountries here in Europe could survive each by themself? I think that finally the globalization has forced us to stand together.

The Union is like Titanic. Everybody says it's unsinkable, and in that sureness everybody becomes blind to it's faults. I think that if some thing will destroy Europe, it's the union. How does it help Europe as a whole, that it's smallest countries are being economically destroyed by it? Nothing good has ever come from economy crushing. It's one too big power, and it consumes everything else in it. Money just flows away.

 

[gb2000ie]

The Union is like Titanic. Everybody says it's unsinkable, and in that sureness everybody becomes blind to it's faults. I think that if some thing will destroy Europe, it's the union. How does it help Europe as a whole, that it's smallest countries are being economically destroyed by it? Nothing good has ever come from economy crushing. It's one too big power, and it consumes everything else in it. Money just flows away.

But, the crushing of the the Irish, Spanish, and Greek economies is not inevitable. It is possible to run Europe in such a way that that does not happen. We're just choosing not to, and THAT's the problem.

B.

 

[Otage]

But, the crushing of the the Irish, Spanish, and Greek economies is not inevitable. It is possible to run Europe in such a way that that does not happen. We're just choosing not to, and THAT's the problem.

B.

Political procedure isn't very flexible and good at fast turns to avoid crushing, even in smaller boats. And with Union we have this great ship and blind captain. Bet hi's even drunk.

And like you yourself said, 98% of people are economically illerate, but almost as many are politically too. Politicians running to Brussels are biggest quacks there are, and they welcome their own kind. People in blind fate give them lift there.

But I feel like ranting here now, but it's just because I just don't believe, that the Unions broblems can be solved with the best bossible out come to everyone, and I don't even believe that that is the deciders greatest concern in Brussels. Some parties will suffer greatly, and some gain a lot. There won't be no fair out come

 

[Shelter]

As for the EU as a whole - I am a BIG fan of the idea of a united Europe
I'm not anti-Europe, or anti-German, I'm anti-the EU bureaucrats, anti-the ECB, anti-the German government, and anti-the British Government. Those institutions are utterly miss-managing this depression.

B.

:agree::agree::agree::agree:

Well but may I ask you what for a German government you would like? A SPD (socialists) government? Or worse - a Red/Green/Dark Red Government. If that will happen, I'll promise you - we very soon are on the level of Greece!

And as well I think you will understand that when you are taking an accomodation you have to pay back this in a certain interval. If you will not do that and instead show the bank your finger (you know the Varoufakis-finger :no you will have to suffer the reaction!

You have asked me if I will not have empathy! GB let me tell you, that I'm a very, very empathetic person and personality. I have compassion, I have always the impulse to help other people, I'll fight for our gay rights sometimes perhaps too much. But there is for my counterbalance my BF - sometimes I'm too emotional with too much empathy!

But I hate it so much to be cheated from friends as well as from politicians. Well such friends I can stop and exclude from my life. With politicians it is more difficult. In Germany I have the possibility every four years in the great election. And since I've been 18 I'll go to every election. And with foreign politicians it will be more than difficult. There I have only the possibility to make my opinion publicly. And that is what I do.

And yes for these Greek government I have NO EMPATHY!

 

[Shelter]

Political procedure isn't very flexible and good at fast turns to avoid crushing, even in smaller boats. And with Union we have this great ship and blind captain. Bet hi's even drunk.

And like you yourself said, 98% of people are economically illerate, but almost as many are politically too. Politicians running to Brussels are biggest quacks there are, and they welcome their own kind. People in blind fate give them lift there.

But I feel like ranting here now, but it's just because I just don't believe, that the Unions broblems can be solved with the best bossible out come to everyone, and I don't even believe that that is the deciders greatest concern in Brussels. Some parties will suffer greatly, and some gain a lot. There won't be no fair out come

Otage I think you are too pessimistic with your TITANIC-theory.