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Windows 8

topdog

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...The nice "find anything" search on a start menu is gone. Then, their new Find only searches by specific category. Worse, their new Find does not integrate with Office 2010 or earlier. The new Find only integrates with WinRT apps -- of which there are still very few....

I agree with a lot of your observations. But maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying about Search - because Search in Win 8 to me seems even easier and more powerful. You don't even need a search box - you just start typing. It will immediately bring up apps, files, e-mails, browser history - anything that matches what you are typing. There's no need to go hunting for a program in the All Apps section - just start typing the name. Probably within three characters the program will be there for you to select.

Like you, I have no use for any WinRT apps. I tried WinRT versions of some of my often used programs (Skype, Evernote, Internet Explorer) and without exception they feel like "dumbed down" versions of those applications.

Even so, I like Windows 8 a lot. It is incredibly fast, has extra security, and some great new features. My favorite is having the full version of Hyper-V virtual machine manager. So, in addition to my work stuff, I have a Windows XP virtual machine that I use for all my browsing. So I never expose the "real" computer to any browser booby traps.

(This would also make a great secret porn stash. Put all your porn on a separate virtual machine so it never accidentally strays into the real world.!)

So my advise on Windows 8 is to go for it and then just ignore the pieces you don't need. It is definitely an upgrade to Windows 7.
 

gb2000ie

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Even so, I like Windows 8 a lot. It is incredibly fast, has extra security, and some great new features.

Could I get you to expand on that? I've been a happy Mac user for many years, and I'm very sensitive to clunky UI, so for me Windows 8 is exceptionally unlikely to pull me back into the Microsoft fold, but, I have to look after a lot of family and friends' computers, so I really would like to hear more about the up-sides to Windows 8, because it's not a matter of if I will have to support it, but when!

My favorite is having the full version of Hyper-V virtual machine manager. So, in addition to my work stuff, I have a Windows XP virtual machine that I use for all my browsing. So I never expose the "real" computer to any browser booby traps.

I just adore virtualisation, but I don't have any experience with Hyper-V. How is it with non-Windows OSes? Will it do Linux? Or is it just a way to run more and/or older instances of Windows on one physical machine? Even if it is only the latter, that's still a great feature to start including for free. Is it in all versions of Win8? Or just the high-end ones?

B.
 

titanium833

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i cant believe u still using windows 8 , its to old !
im using windows 98 !
 

topdog

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You want details, huh? OK, but remember, you asked for it.

First, I just want to note that the offer from Microsoft to upgrade to Windows 8 pro for $40 ends January 31. I expect the price will double after that.

Now, answers to questions:

Hyper-V: It is free on the Pro and volume license version of Windows 8. It is the full Hyper-V that was previously only offered on Windows Server. You can also manage virtual machines running on other servers in your network - so it' very handy. I have loaded the following operating systems on it:
  • Windows Vista
  • Windows 7
  • Windows XP
  • DOS
  • Ubuntu
  • Red Hat Linux
I haven't done much with the Linux versions after I installed them, so take that for what it's worth. But just getting those installed is usually the toughest part.

Performance
Like Windows 7, Windows 8 runs faster than its predecessor on older hardware. This means you will see a bigger performance difference on a six-year-old computer than on a 1-year-old computer. I have it on my old 2008 ThinkPad, and that laptop is now faster than it was with Windows XP - it's original operating system.

Super fast boot: Everyone will notice this immediately. My new laptop comes up in less than 8 seconds. My old laptop that usually took about a minute and a half to boot, now comes up in about 25 seconds. This is a night and day difference.

Security:
Windows 8 has had a radical security overhaul compared to Win 7. I am particularly impressed with how they made the OS both more obscure and harder to hack, and at the same time made it easier live with a highly secured system in day-to-day activities.

Boot: Win 8 will use UEFI Secure boot, if you have newer hardware that supports it. This allows only trusted, signed, operating systems to be installed on the computer. No one can put in a USB stick and boot the computer into another OS and then proceed to hack the computer.

Anti-virus is NOT optional: There is no such thing as an unprotected Windows 8 machine. Every Win 8 computer has sophisticated anit-virus / anti-malware installed. This is initially Microsoft Security Essentials, but you can replace it with Norton, McAfee, or whatever suite you want. Regardless of what you use, they all integrate with the OS.
  • At boot, the first component of the anti-malware software loads before the the kernel. It checks the boot files and makes sure they are the signed versions and haven't been changed. (This prevents root-kit attacks.)
  • Internet Explorer integrates with the security software. Web site code is checked before it is loaded. All downloads are automatically scanned.
  • The new ReFS file system integrates with the anti-malware software. Every file operation includes a scan for suspicious code.
New memory management randomizes program addresses: Memory management has been completely overhauled. Instead of consistently loading the kernel and services into specific memory addresses, it constantly changes their location. This makes if very difficult for malware programmers to target a specific piece of vulnerable code.

Sync Settings between Computers: Now we get to the security features that make life easy. Just like you use a Google account to set up your Android phone, or your iTunes account to set up your iPad, you can use a Microsoft account to sign in to your Windows 8 computer. (This is a Hotmail, xbox, Live, Outlook.com account. But you can also register a gmail or yahoo address to use as your Microsoft account.) If you do that, a whole world of things become easier, especially if you use multiple computers. For one, your settings automatically sync between computers: favorites, history, passwords, desktop backgrounds, Start page design, and others. So setting up a new or second computer or tablet becomes much easier.

Picture password: Naturally, this makes keeping your Microsoft account safe of particular importance. So, go ahead, use a long and nonsense password that is unique for that account. But, you're thinking now you are going to have to type that long thing in every time you start the computer or it wakes up? Nope. Introducing the picture password. Use a picture (your own, or one of Microsoft's) as the background on your lock screen. Then, either with touch or a mouse, trace a random gesture pattern on the picture. That now is how you log in. With the mouse, I just draw a series of three lines, and I'm in. There is a long and impossible to guess password on the account, but I don't have to type it in every day. I have all the advantages of the complicated password, with none of the time-consuming disadvantages.

But wait! There's more! Since I don't use a lot of WinRT apps this isn't as relavant ot me personally - but all WinRT apps are "sandboxed" so they are isolated from all other apps. If one app is compromised, it has no path to affect other apps. Again, another very high barrier for Malware writers to overcome. It also supports Trusted Platform Modules (TPM) which can tie the individual OS fingerprint to application transactions (like, maybe to your bank). This verifies that not only are you the valid user, but your computer has not been compromised. This defeats spy software, and also keeps the network to which you are connecting more secure.

The bottom line on security is that Windows 8 makes it so much more difficult for the virus writer, it will be a long time before it is even worth their trouble to break when there are so many easier targets out there. And if you are running one of those older versions of Windows, you are now on the preferred hacking target.
 
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gb2000ie

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Cheers for the details - I did indeed ask for it :)

Two followups:

1) can you disable secure boot? I don't want a computer that I cannot boot off a Linux live CD. Secure boot is not really great security, it is just DRM. Full disk encryption is how you protect your data from someone with physical access to the machine.

2) Are you sure ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomisation) is new? I'm sure ASLR and DEP have been with Windows since at least Win7, and I think actually since Vista.

3) I'm not sure the picture password is all that secure, but, I'm guessing it's optional, so it's more a cute feature like the gesture unlock on Android IMO.

Thanks for the info.

B.
 

topdog

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.. Are you sure ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomisation) is new?..

You are right. ASLR has been around for about ten years. Yes, Vista and Win 7 does use ASLR. Win 7 randomized Windows kernel, heap, built-in programs, and shared DLLs. But it left it up to programmers to make their programs ALSR-friendly.

Windows 8 takes advantage of two Intel hardware technologies in the ASLR process. First it uses the built-in hardware random number generator (if it is present) to speed up the process. Then it uses the processor's ability to treat executable and non-executable (NX) data differently. It randomizes all executable code - nothing is left up to the application programmer.

Here is a good short summary of ASLR changes in Win 8:

Windows 8 Takes ASLR To The Next Level

... can you disable secure boot? ...

Yes, you can go into the CMOS of your computer's chipset and turn off secure boot. In that case you are trading off the UEFI protection for the additional flexibility of being able to boot various operating systems.

Note: For some uses installing Linux or whatever to a virtual machine may be a better solution all the way around.

And, yes data encryption is a great comprehensive security technology. But how many Windows users encrypt their hard drive? I am pretty comfortable guessing that the number is less than 1%. Believe me, if I could convince more users to encrypt data I would. Even if they wanted to, built-in encryption doesn't come with the home version of Windows 8 that is on most consumer computers.

UEFI Secure Boot (turned on by default in new computers) is available in every version of Windows 8 and prevents someone with physical access from going around the operating system's safeguards by booting into another OS. This is much more basic than DRM - which requires an OS and DRM application to load. This halts the access at the CMOS level.

This puts up a barrier to getting the data (though, admittedly, not an insurmountable barrier). But crucially it protects the machine (with it's network MAC and IP address) from being used outside the Win 8 OS. That, plus putting an admin password on the CMOS, means that to get anything useful from the computer someone has to disassemble the unit. Even then, they won't be able to boot the hard drive on any other computer because the hardware signatures won't match.

If you want to go further and protect the actual data from being read, well then you are talking about encryption. Still, that's an awful lot of new barriers that are now in place without the user having to do anything.

...I'm not sure the picture password is all that secure, but, I'm guessing it's optional, so it's more a cute feature like the gesture unlock on Android IMO...

Yes, it is optional - it is also additional. Picture password is like a fingerprint reader or a smartcard PKI certificate - its an alternative access method. The account is still protected with a password, and the stronger the password the better.

Even people who know better, often fail to use strong passwords because 1) they are difficult to remember, and 2) they are hard to type in on a regular basis. The picture password solves both of these issues, because you don't have to keep the strong password in your head and you only have to type it in once per computer.

As for how secure the picture/gesture access is, I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to. First of all it is completely free-form. It is not a connect-the-dots thing like Android where there are only so many possible combinations. With touchpads and touchscreens you can use a combination of circles and lines. With the mouse you can only do lines. But they are not necessarily connected - they can start and end anywhere you want.

Now, if someone is looking over your shoulder while you do your password gesture, then I think it would be easier to pick up what you were doing than if they watched you type in a password. So in that case it would be less secure.

You can draw your own conclusions based on your experience. In my opinion, if this encourages the average person to go ahead and use a very strong password on their account, and use the picture to start and unlock their screens, then they are going to be exponentially more secure than using a weak password that is easy to remember and type in.
 

gb2000ie

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You are right. ASLR has been around for about ten years. Yes, Vista and Win 7 does use ASLR. Win 7 randomized Windows kernel, heap, built-in programs, and shared DLLs. But it left it up to programmers to make their programs ALSR-friendly.

Windows 8 takes advantage of two Intel hardware technologies in the ASLR process. First it uses the built-in hardware random number generator (if it is present) to speed up the process. Then it uses the processor's ability to treat executable and non-executable (NX) data differently. It randomizes all executable code - nothing is left up to the application programmer.

Here is a good short summary of ASLR changes in Win 8:

Windows 8 Takes ASLR To The Next Level

Ah cool, cheers for that!

Yes, you can go into the CMOS of your computer's chipset and turn off secure boot. In that case you are trading off the UEFI protection for the additional flexibility of being able to boot various operating systems.

Excellent!

Note: For some uses installing Linux or whatever to a virtual machine may be a better solution all the way around.

I'd make that argument in reverse :)

And, yes data encryption is a great comprehensive security technology. But how many Windows users encrypt their hard drive? I am pretty comfortable guessing that the number is less than 1%. Believe me, if I could convince more users to encrypt data I would. Even if they wanted to, built-in encryption doesn't come with the home version of Windows 8 that is on most consumer computers.

Oh wow - that's a really poor show by Microsoft. What on earth makes them think only corporations have information that needs protecting?

I really hate the way there are so many different versions of Windows - this is reason 1001 for that hatered.

On the one and only version of OS X turning on full disk encryption is as easy as setting you desktop background, just a few clicks in the System Preferences app.. I've had all my internal and backup hard drives encrypted for years. It is entirely frictionless.

Speaking of data protection, does Windows 8 address the ease of backup and restore issue yet so that utter non-techies can easily protect their data? Turning on Time Machine on a Mac is one click. (no joke - you plug in a drive, it asks if you'd like to use that drive for backups, you click yes!) Restoring is also trivial.

UEFI Secure Boot (turned on by default in new computers) is available in every version of Windows 8 and prevents someone with physical access from going around the operating system's safeguards by booting into another OS. This is much more basic than DRM - which requires an OS and DRM application to load. This halts the access at the CMOS level.

Forcing a signed OS is a form of DRM that is manage by the computer's firmware. (speaking of which, still the ancient BIOS, or is EFI supported on Windows 8?)

This puts up a barrier to getting the data (though, admittedly, not an insurmountable barrier). But crucially it protects the machine (with it's network MAC and IP address) from being used outside the Win 8 OS. That, plus putting an admin password on the CMOS, means that to get anything useful from the computer someone has to disassemble the unit. Even then, they won't be able to boot the hard drive on any other computer because the hardware signatures won't match.

That is no protection from anyone with a USB SATA interface - no need to boot a drive to read off it's data. Only full disk encryption protects your data. I do this all the time when people forget their Windows passwords.

If you want to go further and protect the actual data from being read, well then you are talking about encryption. Still, that's an awful lot of new barriers that are now in place without the user having to do anything.

They are only barriers from utter novices though. Anyone with even the slightest of skills can just read off your data. I guess it will deprive people of the use of your computer, but it does not protect your data in any meaningful way.

Easy to use encryption is a much simpler and more effective effective approach IMO. I think secure boot is primarily in the interest of vendors, not users.

As for how secure the picture/gesture access is, I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to. First of all it is completely free-form. It is not a connect-the-dots thing like Android where there are only so many possible combinations. With touchpads and touchscreens you can use a combination of circles and lines. With the mouse you can only do lines. But they are not necessarily connected - they can start and end anywhere you want.

That definitely sounds like a step up from Android's dots.

Now, if someone is looking over your shoulder while you do your password gesture, then I think it would be easier to pick up what you were doing than if they watched you type in a password. So in that case it would be less secure.

That and smudge or wear marks would be my biggest concerns with it.

You can draw your own conclusions based on your experience. In my opinion, if this encourages the average person to go ahead and use a very strong password on their account, and use the picture to start and unlock their screens, then they are going to be exponentially more secure than using a weak password that is easy to remember and type in.

I hope you're right and that it does indeed work out like that.

I'm glad security has not been forgotten on Windows 8. Win Vista and 7 were big steps forward from XP, and I'm glad MS are still moving in the right direction. ASLR is good, but built-in security essentials so people are protected by default is really big.

However, the focus on DRM over data protection continues to disappoint, as do the perplexing matrix of versions. Apple definitely have the right idea here - there is just OS X. There isn't even a separate server versions any more, the extra server features are available as a single app in the app store now. If it's a Mountain Lion feature it work on all versions of Mountain Lion, period.

Secure boot provides very little value to the paying customers, infinitely less than simple to use full disk encryption for everyone would, or than a Time Machine clone would.

B.
 

topdog

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Yeah - all good points.

The only thing I'll chime in with is that you will be happy to hear that MS has gone from too many confusing versions on Windows, to just two feature sets - Home and Pro. I mentioned the Volume License version only because it is licensed and activated differently - but its the same features as the Pro version.

The reason there is more than one version is because they can drop features from the Home version that they otherwise would have to pay someone else a license fee for. So it lets them get it out there cheaper. The cost of Windows is now a third of what it used to be. You can upgrade from any older version of Windows to Win 8 Pro for $40.

I know, I know, OS X is cheaper. ;)
 
T

Tom

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The Window 8 Pro for $40.00 is only temporary. So if you are thinking of
upgrading but don't want to do it now, it may make sense to buy now.
 

gb2000ie

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The Window 8 Pro for $40.00 is only temporary. So if you are thinking of
upgrading but don't want to do it now, it may make sense to buy now.

And QUICKLY - the offer ends at the end of January!
 

Cerno

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I hate Windows 8 already. Very ugly design. They could have put some gloss or texture on the boxes. I will wait for Windows 9 instead.
 

gb2000ie

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I hate Windows 8 already. Very ugly design. They could have put some gloss or texture on the boxes. I will wait for Windows 9 instead.

The problem with Windows 8 are a lot more than skin deep - no amount of gloss can make up for a fundamentally flawed design!

Don't hold out for Windows 9, roll back to Windows 7!

B.
 

Cerno

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The problem with Windows 8 are a lot more than skin deep - no amount of gloss can make up for a fundamentally flawed design!

Flawed how?

I personally think Windows 8 is stupid. Most of our monitors are not screen-touch. So why did they design Windows 8 to function as if we can touch our monitors like touching our pads.

Im still using XP. Can't really install 7 coz my hard disk is full ><
 

gb2000ie

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Flawed how?

I personally think Windows 8 is stupid. Most of our monitors are not screen-touch. So why did they design Windows 8 to function as if we can touch our monitors like touching our pads.

Im still using XP. Can't really install 7 coz my hard disk is full ><

Well - you've just hit upon one aspect of the first flaw - but the real problem is that Windows 8 treats a mouse like a finger, and they really are not the same thing.

Another big flaw is the idea of two entirely separate interfaces - it's deeply confusing, and doubles the cognitive load for users, you have to keep two models in your head at all times, not one like on every other OS. Also, the two different universes in Windows 8 are very poorly connected - there are two ENTIRELY different versions of IE, a desktop version and a Modern UI version. You might think that if you go to IE while in Modern UI and open a web page, and then go to IE from the desktop that you would see that same page, but you would be wrong. But it gets worse, if you bookmark something while browsing in the Modern UI, that bookmark will not show up in the Desktop. If I had handed up the design for Windows 8 as an assignment in university I would have failed!

There is also the fact that MS think they can write a single interface that works well on everything from a phone to a 27" desktop computer - even a child can see that's nonsense!

Then we get to the look of the thing - action items should be noticeably different to labels, but I find it really hard to tell them apart in Windows 8. Microsoft are very fond of their "flat" design, but the thing is, "depth" was added to Windows 3.1 for a bloody good reason - if something seems to stick up you know you can click on it! Yes, the new Modern UI looks clean an uncluttered, but it's done in such a way as to make it more confusing, and that's the opposite of good design. Form should follow function, not the other way around! Great designs are beautiful, elegant, minimalist, and, really easy to use. You can't say that about Windows 8.

The current rumours are that Windows Blue (AKA Windows 8.1) will put back the Start menu and allow users to set the default interface to be the Desktop. This will allow users to utterly ignore the Modern UI, but not to get rid of the stupid flatness in the Desktop. If the rumours are true, Windows 8.1 will be a more secure uglier version of Windows 7.

B.
 

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There is also the fact that MS think they can write a single interface that works well on everything from a phone to a 27" desktop computer - even a child can see that's nonsense!

I think that's the root of Windows 8 problem. They should have surveyed the users first. Instead of making stupid so-called revolutionary OS. I'm going to stick with XP ><
 

gb2000ie

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I think that's the root of Windows 8 problem. They should have surveyed the users first. Instead of making stupid so-called revolutionary OS. I'm going to stick with XP ><

For your security - try got to Win7 is you can - XP is very old and very primitive in terms of security. Windows 7 would be a massive upgrade for you. Also, Windows XP will fall out of support next summer, at which time you'll have no choice but to upgrade to something newer anyway.

B.
 

mrpiz

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I saw a TV comercial a few days ago from MS that said Win8 is a good investment for businesses. MS is totally out of touch with reality. I cant imagine any of my business clients tryig to function with this piece of crap. A good number of them dont understand the difference between copy and paste or the concept of Explorer! Much less Modern UI or Desktop. I use it myself but I hate it. When I install programs the shortcut does not appear anywhere in Desktop mode and I have to manually create it. If they would only have made the option to make Desktop mode with a start menu the default then it would be OK. Just Ok. There's so much else wrong with it. And the absence of the start menu is because their research shows that most people dont use it?

WTF

Even my stupidest of clients know that if the program icon is not on the desktop you can always get to it by the menu system. This OS is an IT persons nightmare. Any business would have their productivity decrease.
 

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I saw a TV comercial a few days ago from MS that said Win8 is a good investment for businesses. MS is totally out of touch with reality.

Advertisements always tell lies :D

Im just curious, who had the idea for Windows 8.
 

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I bought it for my laptop. It definitely takes getting used to, but no bad after that.
 
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