The Greek "tragedy"

[Shelter]

HI guys may I interrupt you here because this is all rather mathematical and honestly I get serious pain in my head.
You all right, but what should our American, Australian, Asian and African friends do not think .... and what all do not think about the pain point where I live, I mean I'm Belgian Flemish and every year millions stream flowing of Flanders to Walonie already decades long, okay not your problem but my tax money goes in part to the other side of the country where I have nothing to do with it.
To all the German and French friends I want to say, you have the advantage that your leaders the only real "bosses" of an imaginary unified Europe ... and that benefit you or have.
Below a picture of those who have the say in Europe .....
My good friend Schelter I understand you completely, but you walk not crash, the problem is what you're proposing here occursin my country for many years and I know I can not console with the words "Be glad you indicate that instead of having to ask. "
Personally, I'm still an emotional person because every day brings tears to my eyes as I see the situation of the Palestinians, the Syriansand now also the Yemenis .... sometimes I do not sleep properly.
My "council of the day" close your eyes and listen to the song of the blackbird now get the spring !!
ESTO BEATUS

My dear friend Ioanna,
you are totally right and I agree with you for more than 100% that our world is not for the whole mankind a paradise. But as I have said here before - I'm not Superman and I can't save the whole world.

I have opened this thread with only a small part of nuisances. I know that there will be much more and harder ones. In Palestine, in Syria or now too in Yemen as you mentioned. But here I have had the intention to speak about the behaviour between the members of the EU and Greece.

I've heard from the problems between Flemish and Walloons. But honestly that are problems I don't understand. Please open a new thread and explain to us why! Will it be the same manner like in Ireland between Catholics and Protestants? I really would be interested in.

 

[gb2000ie]

Than it would be more honest from Mr. Tsipras to leave the EU. All the many billions of Euros would be lost than - but we will survive. Mr. Tsipras and his colleagues too?

HOW?

"just leave the EU" - that is sooooooo easy to say. It's not even remotely easy to do. There is no mechanism for leaving the Euro, let alone the EU!

The whole operation was designed as a one-way street. There is no pathway out of the Euro other than total and utter chaos.

Also - what kind of a union boots out members are soon as they are in need? That is pretty much the complete opposite of principles on which the EU was founded.

Remember - a very significant reason (not the only reason, but a very significant one) Greece is in this mess is that the Euro removed all the tools countries have traditionally used to battle recessions - they could not devalue their currency, and they could not reduce interest rates.

What kind of a currency union abandons the victims it creates?

Germany has been the big winner of the single currency, it has helped Germany become so much richer. Greece is the biggest victim, and the fact that the German government will not even acknowledge that fact is deeply disturbing.

Greece is not the only Euro victim BTW - Spain and Ireland have suffered because of the Euro too - we too would have been much better off if we had been able to devalue our currency or stimulate our economies.

The Euro had a honeymoon start - it looked like it was a 100% positive thing, no down-sides at all. Turns out it's REALLY bad at dealing with asymmetric shocks (when different countries in the currency union have vastly different needs in therms of fiscal policy). What really disturbs me is that no one is talking about how to address this glaring weakness with the currency union as it currently stands. Blaming Ireland, Spain, and Greece is not actually fixing the fundamental problem facing the Euro!

B.

 

[Frenchgerman]

well said gb !

 

[Shelter]

This is a short article I found this morning in my newspaper and I'll try to translate:

"For Putin yesterday was a good day. For Tsipras too? That must still turn out.
Who is deep in the red, since years keep alive from his partners in the EU and as thanks stabs in the back these partners, can't reckon on with solidarity.

Putin has cracked the European solidarity. Offer: Greece should join the Ruble-Zone, at the end the Drachma will be yet anchor currency.

To be unfaithful means in a marriage divorce. So should it be as well in this alliance."

 

[Frenchgerman]

This is a short article I found this morning in my newspaper and I'll try to translate:

"For Putin yesterday was a good day. For Tsipras too? That must still turn out.
Who is deep in the red, since years keep alive from his partners in the EU and as thanks stabs in the back these partners, can't reckon on with solidarity.

Putin has cracked the European solidarity. Offer: Greece should join the Ruble-Zone, at the end the Drachma will be yet anchor currency.

To be unfaithful means in a marriage divorce. So should it be as well in this alliance."

I suppose it was a German paper where you found the article ?

 

[gb2000ie]

This is a short article I found this morning in my newspaper and I'll try to translate:

"For Putin yesterday was a good day. For Tsipras too? That must still turn out.
Who is deep in the red, since years keep alive from his partners in the EU and as thanks stabs in the back these partners, can't reckon on with solidarity.

Putin has cracked the European solidarity. Offer: Greece should join the Ruble-Zone, at the end the Drachma will be yet anchor currency.

To be unfaithful means in a marriage divorce. So should it be as well in this alliance."

So if Germany blocks European help, it is also not OK to look at your other options?

Should the Greeks just all die or something?

When all good options have been blocked, you have no choice but to try less good options.

I have still to see you make ONE suggestion of how the MILLIONS of ordinary Greeks who are suffering day-in-day-out should be helped get back to a normal life?

You can't oppress millions of people for years at a time without driving them to ever more extreme possible solutions.

Do you think the Greeks WANT to deal with a madman? Not a chance! They just can't get anywhere while Germany remains intransigent and unreasonable.

B.

 

[Shelter]

Hello GB - you know I don't back down. And I'll give you an answer. But at the moment it is too late for me. Tomorrow morning I have to get up very early. So now my place is the bed. Sorry but tomorrow I'm here again.

 

[gb2000ie]

@gb2000ie

I think it's misleading and disingenuous to say Germany is stopping other countries from helping Greece. Frankly, it's just provocative and presumably you are saying it to simply for the sake of antagonizing German members of the forum.

I said the Germans are blocking the EU and ECB avenues, and that is factually correct.

Germany is one of the most powerful political players in Europe, and the German government is using that power to obstruct and hinder EU and ECB action to help Greece. They have been playing that role for years now.

If you think I am saying it because if racism, fine, I don't care. I know I have come to a reasoned opinion based on fact, and I don't care what a random person on a forum thinks of my motives.

It looks like earlier on you relied on swearing and cursing to the point of looking ridiculous, and now you are trying to find another way to antagonize others and inflame the argument.:rolling eyes:

Colourful metaphors are a pretty normal thing when people are angry about something. I mean, it's only the suffering of millions we're talking about here, why would anyone show any emotion about so much suffering?

If you think that makes me ridiculous, fine, I really don't care.

My own view is that there seems to be broad agreement within the EU that the program of austerity, not just in Greece but elsewhere is justified and that borrowed monies should be repaid. This is the view at the mainstream political level. I don't see any of the mainstream politicians of France, or Sweden, or Finland, or the UK coming to the rescue of 'The Coalition of the Radical Left' in Greece (Syriza). So let's expand our view to include analysis of the positions of these countries also.

Since when is 'broad consensus' a measure of truth? The facts are in, austerity is an abject failure. Opinion doesn't matter, FACTS matter.

Will the peoples of Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France, etc eventually elect Political groups into power that will support or even follow in the footsteps of Syriza?

I hope so - it would be nice for the Irish people to finally elect a government with a back-bone!

The current government in your own country assert that Greece should follow in their footsteps. The Irish Government continues to impose austerity and seems committed to scheduled repayment of its debts. New household charges for water seem to be one of the big issues there recently. So, is austerity working in Ireland? You are there, so please let us know.

Our economy is a mess, austerity is not working here!

Our government are DEEPLY unpopular, and the average Irish person thinks they are idiots for their view on Greece.

Here is a clip I found of Irish Minister of Finance Noonan talking about Greece. The article is dated February 25 2015:
Noonan Says Greece Should Seek Irish-Style Solution to Debt Woe
Anon URL

Also, more recently:

Varoufakis’s provocative style has thought to have grated with some of his European counterparts and Noonan’s surprise comments have been seen as confirming speculation that Varoufakis is to be given a back seat in the negotiations as a conciliatory gesture from the Greek government to its European partners.

However Dragasakis swiftly refuted Noonan’s assertions
Anon URL

Perhaps Noonan is part and parcel of an EU establishment that does not appreciate the Varoufakis perspective.

So in sum, I don't see any of the mainstream politicians of the EU standing shoulder to shoulder, as it were, with the current Greek government. And especially not with Varoufakis. I think he is clearly very intelligent, the point here is not to denigrate him, but to point out that he is outside the mainstream, he is new and seemingly radical, and many of his counterparts across the EU are being cautious. Childish behavior and provocation will not remove this caution -quite the opposite in actuality.

The Irish government IS part of the establishment, yes! Ireland sold it's soul to the troika nearly a decade ago.

Political opinions do not make facts!

I find Nobel Prize-winning economists a better source of information about economics than politicians with a very strong vested interest - http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/04/osbornia-revisited/

Politicians have won the PR-war on austerity, not the economic argument!

If you prefer political spin to economic reasoning, fine, but I'm not that naive.

B.

 

[Frenchgerman]

Sorry tata, as German (much to the chagrinof shelter I still am and will remain so) I completely agree with gb.

So problem is not that Greece may or may not reimbourse the loans ... evidently they have to !
The problem is that first among others Germany impose an austerity on Greece that the country, expressed in official elections, rejected.
And when Greece confronted with no (definitve) alternative among the 'friends', seeking solutions in the east is viewed as treason.

The solution is not what the troika is doing today. We have to clean the house, start afresh, not by forcing pays to quit the EU or imposing a specific functioning. We have to start afresh with the same laws for all, same justice for all, same social security for all, and above all, an identical financal and tax system upon which the euro can be based !

 

[Frenchgerman]

but this difference in the legal bases is just the expression of the political system of the EU.
We don't have a goverment responsible before parliament. Nor is teh parliament the motor of the EU. It's the commission and the heads of states and the national parliaments that have the power and all of those think only in terms of 'what can the EU do for me'.

the best exemple is that each european treaty was controlled by the German Supreme Court to verify that it was in concordance with the German constitution (Grundgesetz). Which means that the european construction has to be conform to the German Grundgesetz ...

 

[Shelter]

Some people here - so I have the impression - would be more than happy if the EU would remodelled to a new comprehensive Union of Socialist Soviet Republic of Europe. But to their chagrin that NEVER will happen.

And to a special person: You know the old German wisdom - WAS KÜMMERT ES DIE STOLZE EICHE, WENN SICH DIE ....... AN IHR SCHEUERT!

 

[Frenchgerman]

Some people here - so I have the impression - would be more than happy if the EU would remodelled to a new comprehensive Union of Socialist Soviet Republic of Europe. But to their chagrin that NEVER will happen.

And to a special person: You know the old German wisdom - WAS KÜMMERT ES DIE STOLZE EICHE, WENN SICH DIE ....... AN IHR SCHEUERT!

tut mir leid, das Sprichwort kenn' ich nicht !



for the rest,I would gladly live in a European Federal Republic ! No need for it to be Soviet, but socialiste ... why not ?

And once and for all shelter : I never wrote anywhere, here or otherwise, that I want Germany, Europe od France to be a 'soviet' country.
The free expression of opinion is one principe of the modern democracies. Here in France even the national populists (FN) have this right (and rightly so) ... so why would I dispute this right for you ?

this right has nothing to do with my opinion of the FN, of you or all the other right wing or religious political extremists.

 

[Shelter]

tut mir leid, das Sprichwort kenn' ich nicht !



for the rest,I would gladly live in a European Federal Republic ! No need for it to be Soviet, but socialiste ... why not ?

And once and for all shelter : I never wrote anywhere, here or otherwise, that I want Germany, Europe od France to be a 'soviet' country.
The free expression of opinion is one principe of the modern democracies. Here in France even the national populists (FN) have this right (and rightly so) ... so why would I dispute this right for you ?

this right has nothing to do with my opinion of the FN, of you or all the other right wing or religious political extremists.

Frenchie I refuse to tolerate your hate-word EXTREMIST in my case! Be very cautious with such words. Or would you like it if I would call you a left extremist?

 

[Shelter]

And here once more a short comment from my today newspaper - and it was a German newspaper not from the Kongo:

"How dishonest one can be? Just the atheist Alexis Tsipras pulls now the religous card, visits Moscows patriarch Kyrill and is auguring together with the likewise faintly divine President Putin the common orthodox roots.

He don't betrayed thereby not only his own convictions, but misused too the emotions of the people, for whom religion is really important.

But how much honesty you can await from a man, who is promising since many months in Brussels, what he regularly is breaching in Athens?

Tsipras is not the rebel as which he likes to see himself. He is nothing more than an simple opportunist."

 

[Frenchgerman]

Frenchie I refuse to tolerate your hate-word EXTREMIST in my case! Be very cautious with such words. Or would you like it if I would cvall you a left extremist?

you made the association ... so when the shoe fits ...


and I think, in your eyes, a socialist is an extremist ... In this case, I gladly be an extremist ...

and by the way ... my name is Otmar and my nick is Frenchgerman ...

 

[Shelter]

Tata thank you that you came here as support against the left camarilla here.

I'm totally agree with you!

 

[Frenchgerman]

And here once more a short comment from my today newspaper - and it was a German newspaper not from the Kongo:

"How dishonest one can be? Just the atheist Alexis Tsipras pulls now the religous card, visits Moscows patriarch Kyrill and is auguring together with the likewise faintly divine President Putin the common orthodox roots.

He don't betrayed thereby not only his own convictions, but misused too the emotions of the people, for whom religion is really important.

But how much honesty you can await from a man, who is promising since many months in Brussels, what he regularly is breaching in Athens?

Tsipras is not the rebel as which he likes to see himself. He is nothing more than an simple opportunist."

with this, I can agree ... after all, he is a politician ...

 

[smallsleepyrascalcat]

Gentlemen... this thread is something I expect to find when I turn a rock.

You can have this conversation on a civilised level, but not the way you're having it right now.

 

[gb2000ie]

Some people here - so I have the impression - would be more than happy if the EU would remodelled to a new comprehensive Union of Socialist Soviet Republic of Europe.

I presume you're not referring to me?

I made my views clear, I think the EU has a massive democratic deficit. We get to elect no one with actual power in the EU, just the MEPs who get to rubber-stamp the bills written by the commission.

I want a more democratic Europe, and I want a Euro that has a solution for how to deal with asymmetric shocks. It is not a matter of IF it will happen again, but WHEN.

We've suffered the worst depression in nearly 100 years, and we have done almost nothing to address the underlying problems.

I don't want a dictatorship, I don't want Europe to fall apart, I want a democratic and fair Europe.

B.

 

[Frenchgerman]

Gentlemen... this thread is something I expect to find when I turn a rock.

You can have this conversation on a civilised level, but not the way you're having it right now.

nobody has descended to (real) name calling ... so what's your problem ?


for the moment, it still is a discussion, fierce 'soit', but on an acceptable level !