The Greek "tragedy"

[gb2000ie]

What do you see as the alternative? Spending money you don't have? Defaulting? Chaos?

1) a stimulus program. Interest rates are at a record low, German borrow rates are so low they can effectively get free money now. That is the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. You get a better physical economy, you put people to work straight away, and get money flowing, and you get to do that all for close to free.

2) A reduction in the speed of repayment - give Greece the breathing room to get out of recession and back on it's feet before ramping the repayments back up.

3) Perhaps some debt write-off. I'm not actually sure that's needed, and you could argue that a slow-down in repayments is a kind of write-off. Either way, they need breathing room to get the country running again.

I'm absolutely not in favour of chaos, a point I have made repeatedly is that a fair solution is utterly necessary to avoid forcing the Greeks to do something drastic like defaulting and hence causing chaos. We really don't need another massive financial shock, we're not over the last one yet!

Like 'Sinn Fein'?:thinking: They haven't been faring to well in the Irish, British, or come to it the US media of late.

*shudder*

No. Not like Sinn Fein. I see their rise as a symptom of the failure of our mainstream parties, not as a reflection of their qualities.

I'm a fan of logic and reason, and Sinn Fein's fiscal policies literally do not add up!

The present Irish government is gaining in popularity (per recent polls), and your official unemployment rate is dropping and will soon be in single figures.

Yes - when you stop banging your head against the wall, you feel better. The small bounce now that we are finally turning down our austerity a little does not justify austerity. If anything, it shows the depressing effect austerity had, because as austerity is turned down, we are finally getting some half-hearted recovery.

Our employment rate is still at unacceptably high levels, just not as bad as a few years ago. The fact that it has taken almost a decade to get to these first green shoots is not a sign of success, but of failure. We could have, and should have, been where we are now a few years ago.

Why? How?

If I knew that answer to that I'd win a nobel prize! Why do most Americans believe climate change is a hoax despite the evidence? Why was it so hard to convince politicians about the dangerous of tobacco for so many decades? Why do so many Americans think their president is a secret Muslim?

I really don't know why our society cares so little about facts.

My pet-theory is that 24 hour news has turned the news into a sport, and it's much easier to report on the political horse trading than the actual policies, so our discussions are all about who's winning the popularity contest, and not about the soundness of anyone's policies or the facts behind their claims.

I'm pretty sure the sportification of news is at least part of the reason, but there are probably a lot more reasons too.

B.

 

[Shelter]

I presume you're not referring to me?

I made my views clear, I think the EU has a massive democratic deficit. We get to elect no one with actual power in the EU, just the MEPs who get to rubber-stamp the bills written by the commission.

I want a more democratic Europe, and I want a Euro that has a solution for how to deal with asymmetric shocks. It is not a matter of IF it will happen again, but WHEN.

We've suffered the worst depression in nearly 100 years, and we have done almost nothing to address the underlying problems.

I don't want a dictatorship, I don't want Europe to fall apart, I want a democratic and fair Europe.

B.

Dear friend I don't want referring to you but you make it awkward for me. Sometimes it seems to me you have very strong revolutionary thoughts which are culminating in the clear statement: aren't you pro my thoughts you are my enemy! As I've said, this are sometimes my feelings. I hope I'll be wrong.

But neither you nor me nor anyone here or wherever will be in the position to change something sustainable in this case. We can write here our opinions - and that will be too the freedom of democracy and the freedom of speech - may they be so different like ours here.

But it will be, in any case for me, unbearable to borne personal attacks because I or anyone else has a dissenting opinion. And if that will happen - well, I can't suspend with a special answer!

You say, you want a more democratic Europe, and I will be 1000% on your side. I feel as well that the EU commision is an abstract conglomerate which like a giant octopus strangled national self determination.

With your national government you have the possibility every four or five years to vote another one. You can see what your government will do during their term of office and if you dislike it, you have the chance and the possibility to change.

Well you can vote as well for Brussels. But everything what happens there is not transparent for me. So I never really know what happens there. And I think that must be put to the test!

You've said as well: "I don't want a dictatorship, I don't want Europe to fell apart, I want a democratic and fair Europe!"

So I think no one of us here want's a dictatorship. But if communist mindset will taking hold, believe me - a dictatorship will not be far away. Think, communists and national socialists as well as fascists are all from the same line (different only in their colours).

And I think Europe will not fall apart, because it is strong. As well I think our western Europe will be democratic - but perhaps not always fair. But the Paradise you will find only in the bible - it will be only a beautiful imagination.

Well this was not really a post about Greek - but something what I wanted to say.

 

[gb2000ie]

But if communist mindset will taking hold, believe me - a dictatorship will not be far away. Think, communists and national socialists as well as fascists are all from the same line (different only in their colours).

Who here has been advocating communism? The only person to mention it is you!

Or have you simply decided that my view must be communism because it is different to yours?

I'm not a communist, I like freedom, and owning things!

The choice is not "leave Greece to suffer, or become communist"!

B.

 

[Shelter]

Who here has been advocating communism? The only person to mention it is you!

Or have you simply decided that my view must be communism because it is different to yours?

I'm not a communist, I like freedom, and owning things!

The choice is not "leave Greece to suffer, or become communist"!

B.

You totally misunderstood me - I don't have said YOU are advocating communism or anyone else here. I was only referring to your word that you don't want a dictatorship. And to prevent such a horrible imagination there must be everything undertaken to preclude all arising attempts of communism, national socialism as well as fascism.

And sure it would be more than cruel if Greece would skidding down to a radical communism or another radical system. Because than the suffering of the normal Greek population would be reinforced.

Well I'm not a member of the EU commission of of the ECB. But everything I can read here says the EU and as well surely Germany will help Greece. They want to preserve Athens from the bust with further credits. But if I want to give you a credit, surely I want to get guarantees. Thats normal business conduct! And until now Tsipras and his ministers haven't fulfilled the terms they have promised in Brussels. Until now there are only very, very small steps from their side.

When I want to get my salary at the end of the month I have to work for - without work no salary. Very simple! So Mr. Tsipras shall make his homework and he will get the money he needs! Without anything from his side - sorry, why we should pay for him?! I hope he will have the good sense to do this before April 20 or 21. Because on April 24 the representatives of the Euro-Zone wants to score in Riga the plans for reforms of the Greek government. If the Tsipras and Co's will refuse again they will have very big trouble in May. Then will be their wallet totally empty. Obstinacy may be appearing for the public very interesting but it will come to nothing!

And so I think that too Mr. Tsipras will wake up from his dreamland and steps into the reality.

 

[Frenchgerman]

Dear friend I don't want referring to you but you make it awkward for me. Sometimes it seems to me you have very strong revolutionary thoughts which are culminating in the clear statement: aren't you pro my thoughts you are my enemy! As I've said, this are sometimes my feelings. I hope I'll be wrong.

But neither you nor me nor anyone here or wherever will be in the position to change something sustainable in this case. We can write here our opinions - and that will be too the freedom of democracy and the freedom of speech - may they be so different like ours here.

But it will be, in any case for me, unbearable to borne personal attacks because I or anyone else has a dissenting opinion. And if that will happen - well, I can't suspend with a special answer!

You say, you want a more democratic Europe, and I will be 1000% on your side. I feel as well that the EU commision is an abstract conglomerate which like a giant octopus strangled national self determination.

With your national government you have the possibility every four or five years to vote another one. You can see what your government will do during their term of office and if you dislike it, you have the chance and the possibility to change.

Well you can vote as well for Brussels. But everything what happens there is not transparent for me. So I never really know what happens there. And I think that must be put to the test!

You've said as well: "I don't want a dictatorship, I don't want Europe to fell apart, I want a democratic and fair Europe!"

So I think no one of us here want's a dictatorship. But if communist mindset will taking hold, believe me - a dictatorship will not be far away. Think, communists and national socialists as well as fascists are all from the same line (different only in their colours).

And I think Europe will not fall apart, because it is strong. As well I think our western Europe will be democratic - but perhaps not always fair. But the Paradise you will find only in the bible - it will be only a beautiful imagination.

Well this was not really a post about Greek - but something what I wanted to say.

for the first statement, you are wrong ! History, especially recent history shows that communist government doesn't end obligatory in dictatorship ... (communist participation in France, communist government in Italy, etc).

For the second statement communist and socialist come from the same background, that's true mostly in Germany, and that was 100 years ago (Republic of Weimar). Since then there is a clear distinction between socialism and communism which was made clear in the Bad Godesberger Programm (1959).

The German fascists have in common only part of the name (NSDAP = the 'S') but the rest is different with socialists.

But dictatorship, be it right or left have strong connection points among them. The emphasis is every time on 'national', their idea of socialism, alterophobie, persecution of those who don't agree (politic, religion, etc), don't fit (ethnic minorities, gay, etc), aren't productif (ill, mental health problem, handicaped people, etc).

 

[gorgik9]

Shelter, you must stop hurling around unfounded accusations!

Anyone who knows anything about communism, will know that B. isn't a communist. If he's anything besides a computer whiz, an Irishman, a GH member, SVIP & Hottie, he's probably a keynesian in economic theory and inspired by modern keynesians such as Paul Krugman. But as he said himself, he's also "inspired" by the great depression in so many European countries - Spain, Ireland etc.

 

[Shelter]

Shelter, you must stop hurling around unfounded accusations!

Anyone who knows anything about communism, will know that B. isn't a communist. If he's anything besides a computer whiz, an Irishman, a GH member, SVIP & Hottie, he's probably a keynesian in economic theory and inspired by modern keynesians such as Paul Krugman. But as he said himself, he's also "inspired" by the great depression in so many European countries - Spain, Ireland etc.

Gorgik, read the post above - never ever I've hurling around unfounded accusations. And if you read correct and not only with personal anger, you can see that I haven't accused GB to be a communist! So please don't try to be the senior teacher! I only represent my standpoint, if you like it or not - and that will be allowed, or do we have a dictate of arguments?

 

[gorgik9]

Gorgik, read the post above - never ever I've hurling around unfounded accusations. And if you read correct and not only with personal anger, you can see that I haven't accused GB to be a communist! So please don't try to be the senior teacher! I only represent my standpoint, if you like it or not - and that will be allowed, or do we have a dictate of arguments?

Yes I wrote in too much haste, but you were writing your while I was writing mine, so I couldn't read yours until after I already had posted mine.

On the bigger question if you hurl around unfounded accusations and snide insinuations, I think you're not fully honest and truthful.

You managed to end your post with a malevolent insinuation that I have some kind of ambition to dictate to others what to say and think.

It wasn't the first time I noted your desires to hurl insinuations and accusations around.

 

[gb2000ie]

They want to preserve Athens from the bust with further credits. But if I want to give you a credit, surely I want to get guarantees. Thats normal business conduct! And until now Tsipras and his ministers haven't fulfilled the terms they have promised in Brussels. Until now there are only very, very small steps from their side.

When giving a loan, it is also important that the terms be realistic.

As for the Greeks failing to meet their promises, that is not a fair reflection of reality IMO. The original deal worked out with the Troika was based on financial models which predicted that certain inputs by the Greeks would result in certain outputs. Basically, that austerity would not be as contractionary as conventional economic theory would suggest because of 'confidence'.

Greece did their bit and implemented the required level of austerity, but the outcome was not as promised, because austerity IS in fact contractionary, just like long-standing economic theory says. Is it fair to blame the Greeks for the confidence fairy being as fictional as the tooth fairy?

When I want to get my salary at the end of the month I have to work for - without work no salary. Very simple! So Mr. Tsipras shall make his homework and he will get the money he needs!

But Greece DID do their homework! They succeeded in imposing MASSIVE austerity on their people. The fact that the austerity didn't generate the magic the Troika predicted is not the Greek's fault!

Without anything from his side - sorry, why we should pay for him?!

The Greeks have sacrificed a HECK of a lot over the past few years, you are not giving them fair credit for what they have done.

I hope he will have the good sense to do this before April 20 or 21. Because on April 24 the representatives of the Euro-Zone wants to score in Riga the plans for reforms of the Greek government. If the Tsipras and Co's will refuse again they will have very big trouble in May. Then will be their wallet totally empty. Obstinacy may be appearing for the public very interesting but it will come to nothing!

And so I think that too Mr. Tsipras will wake up from his dreamland and steps into the reality.

Tsipras cannot accept a bad deal, because the Greek people will not accept that from him. If there is going to be a deal, it MUST be a fair deal, or Greece cannot accept it.

B.

 

[Shelter]

Yes I wrote in too much haste, but you were writing your while I was writing mine, so I couldn't read yours until after I already had posted mine.

On the bigger question if you hurl around unfounded accusations and snide insinuations, I think you're not fully honest and truthful.

You managed to end your post with a malevolent insinuation that I have some kind of ambition to dictate to others what to say and think.

It wasn't the first time I noted your desires to hurl insinuations and accusations around.

Hello Gorgik - why do you try always and always again to read 'malevolent insinuations' into my words. It only was a rhetorical question and NOT an assault against your integrity.

And please honestly I refuse to tolerate that you are claiming I would hurl insinuations and accusations around here. Shall I be quiet only because you don't like my persuasion?

And question: do you have enjoined others here too not to 'hurl insuniations and accusations around'. Or do you are blind on your left eye?

 

[Frenchgerman]

You sure did.

As regards 'snide accusations' 'malevolent insinuation'.:? You are definitely over-reacting. Nothing was said to remotely justify your sudden take. Okay you didn't direct this at me but all I can say is that if you did, I would not put up with it and you'd be hearing from a mod.

Frankly I expect a better example from a SuperVIP.

just a moment please ... like I said before, this is discussion, fiercely expressed, never degenerated (too much) so don't let us put words on a 'gold scale' (nicht auf die Goldwaage legen) ...
If what you said were true, he was not the only one ...

this means above all that we are passionate people ... Can you say that about yourself ?

if it were possible, I would like to take away a 'thanks' ... for this comment ...

 

[gb2000ie]

Rather than arguing about how people argue, could we please stick to the topic.

To that end, here's a summary of my POV:

1) how we got here matters:
* Greek over-spending is a part of how we got here, but nowhere near all of it. Greece was not the only country running deficits above the permitted 3% (hello Italy German & France!). It is also not only countries running excessive deficits that got into trouble - Spain & Ireland were not over the 3% limit, but still ended up in the same boat as Greece.
* Inept government and corruption is also part of how we got here, but again, not nearly the full story. Italy has been as corrupt and as badly run for as long as Greece, and it has run deficits for decades, but it is not Greece.
* Greece, Ireland, Spain, they are all part of the same problem, because they are all Euro-losers.
- Economists have warned for years that the Euro area is not an optimum currency area, and is at risk of asymmetric shock. While times were good, that was a purely hypothetical problem, but times didn't stay good!
- Europe was hit by a large asymmetric shock at the start of this crisis. That meant that the fiscal policy needs of some parts of the single-currency area were drastically different from the needs of others. In that situation you can't actually help everyone. Someone has to get their way. Germany and France got their way, and Greece, Spain, and Ireland did not. The central areas wanted tighter fiscal policy to protect from a bubble, and the periphery needed expansionary fiscal policy to counter-act their recessions.
- Unlike other large currency areas like the USA, the Euro-zone did not have a well defined lender of last resort. If there had been, there would have been no sovereign debt crisis, because Greece, Spain, and Ireland would not have been facing double-digit interest rates in bond sales.
- The Euro made it impossible for national governments to respond to deep recessions in the normal way: they could not control interest rates, they could not devalue their currency, and they could not print money (quantitative easing).
* The first Greek rescue plan rested on bad economics. At that time, the IMF, the ECB, and the EC (European Commission) had all bought into a new economic theory - expansionary austerity through confidence. It was an unproven idea, but very appealing at a moral level (if you do penance, you will be rewarded). We now know that expansionary austerity is a myth - austerity is contractionary, so instead of helping Greece, it drove them deeper into recession. (Note that the IMF nolonger believes in expansionary austerity, but the ECB and EC still keep the faith)
2) Now that we are here, a solution has to be found that is fair on Greece, and takes into account all the reasons that have led to the current crisis, including the problems with the Euro, and the failure of the promises of the first rescue plan to materialise.
3) Even after the Greek crisis is resolved, there is an even bigger problem to resolve. Three countries have suffered badly because of the Euro's inability to deal with asymmetric shock. It is not a matter of IF there will be another asymmetric shock, but WHEN. We need to make changes to the way the Euro is operated so that we can do a better job of dealing with the next crisis than we did with this one!

 

[Shelter]

Rather than arguing about how people argue, could we please stick to the topic.

To that end, here's a summary of my POV:

1) how we got here matters:
* Greek over-spending is a part of how we got here, but nowhere near all of it. Greece was not the only country running deficits above the permitted 3% (hello Italy German & France!). It is also not only countries running excessive deficits that got into trouble - Spain & Ireland were not over the 3% limit, but still ended up in the same boat as Greece.
* Inept government and corruption is also part of how we got here, but again, not nearly the full story. Italy has been as corrupt and as badly run for as long as Greece, and it has run deficits for decades, but it is not Greece.
* Greece, Ireland, Spain, they are all part of the same problem, because they are all Euro-losers.
- Economists have warned for years that the Euro area is not an optimum currency area, and is at risk of asymmetric shock. While times were good, that was a purely hypothetical problem, but times didn't stay good!
- Europe was hit by a large asymmetric shock at the start of this crisis. That meant that the fiscal policy needs of some parts of the single-currency area were drastically different from the needs of others. In that situation you can't actually help everyone. Someone has to get their way. Germany and France got their way, and Greece, Spain, and Ireland did not. The central areas wanted tighter fiscal policy to protect from a bubble, and the periphery needed expansionary fiscal policy to counter-act their recessions.
- Unlike other large currency areas like the USA, the Euro-zone did not have a well defined lender of last resort. If there had been, there would have been no sovereign debt crisis, because Greece, Spain, and Ireland would not have been facing double-digit interest rates in bond sales.
- The Euro made it impossible for national governments to respond to deep recessions in the normal way: they could not control interest rates, they could not devalue their currency, and they could not print money (quantitative easing).
* The first Greek rescue plan rested on bad economics. At that time, the IMF, the ECB, and the EC (European Commission) had all bought into a new economic theory - expansionary austerity through confidence. It was an unproven idea, but very appealing at a moral level (if you do penance, you will be rewarded). We now know that expansionary austerity is a myth - austerity is contractionary, so instead of helping Greece, it drove them deeper into recession. (Note that the IMF nolonger believes in expansionary austerity, but the ECB and EC still keep the faith)
2) Now that we are here, a solution has to be found that is fair on Greece, and takes into account all the reasons that have led to the current crisis, including the problems with the Euro, and the failure of the promises of the first rescue plan to materialise.
3) Even after the Greek crisis is resolved, there is an even bigger problem to resolve. Three countries have suffered badly because of the Euro's inability to deal with asymmetric shock. It is not a matter of IF there will be another asymmetric shock, but WHEN. We need to make changes to the way the Euro is operated so that we can do a better job of dealing with the next crisis than we did with this one!

GB with this statement you have written a very profound and well-conceived final-chord to this thread - for the moment. You know I will not subscribe everything you have said here - but now I think we have to wait what will happen after April 24. Everything what we will say here in the moment will be nothing than guesswork.

But let us see what will happen after the meeting in Riga. If we will know than the decisions - we can discuss again.

So until than! I would be happy to meet you here again after this date.
Mostly you GB and nevertheless you too Frenchgerman, the thorn in the side (just kidding!)

 

[Shelter]

Yes I wrote in too much haste, but you were writing your while I was writing mine, so I couldn't read yours until after I already had posted mine.

On the bigger question if you hurl around unfounded accusations and snide insinuations, I think you're not fully honest and truthful.

You managed to end your post with a malevolent insinuation that I have some kind of ambition to dictate to others what to say and think.

It wasn't the first time I noted your desires to hurl insinuations and accusations around.

But I can't leave for the moment from this thread to answer once more your "friendly" post.
At first I have seen at no time that you have participated in one of the big discussions here. Never you have given a contribution from yourself to this or other threads here. But suddenly you come out of nowhere as the great and wise avenger, judge and executioner all in one. It is my feeling that you are always waiting until you know which side will be the best for you to make a good impression - so you are in my eyes only an opportunist. Nothing more nothing less! And that my friend ist really miserable! I've expected something else from a man like you!

And what you have written about me in your post was ugly, wicked, villainous, malicious and pejorative. You have written words and assertions you never ever should say to a friend in such a fierce and ferocious matter as you have done it here. You never, never, never should say that to a friend may he be virtual or real!

Why don't you participate in this discussion? - Are you too cowardly to show openly your own opinions and that you can find headwind? Do you feel better to appear out of thin air, to flail on a total surprised opponent - and disappearing again? Do you think that's hero like?

Or do you think you can suppress with your older age every young voice?! In this case, believe me, you're mistaken! The old ones will vanish - the young ones will take over the oar!

 

[gb2000ie]

jazzeven - just a few responses:

1) the European elite mocked the economists who predicted problems for the Euro because of asymmetric shock. So really, anyone who believed what Brussels was telling them did not go into the Euro with their eyes open. You can't say Greece, Spain, and Ireland deserved to suffer because they should have expected it when they were being told by Europe that there was no problem.

2) I don't buy the argument that Greece had to suffer because it was out of control. It was no worse than Italy, and the Italians didn't have to suffer like the Greeks. While we're talking about countries over-doing spending, the Belgians have been masters of that too, and again, no problem.

3) German politicians, like right-wing American politicians may have made hay by pretending Germany had a debt problem, but it did not and does not. German interest payments have not been, and are not, a problem. Germany does not have a sovereign debit crisis, and did not. There was a lot of utter BS doing the rounds about sovereign debt in the early days of this crisis, including some very high-profile papers that had to be retracted later when it was discovered they were based on cherry-picked data, and hence a fiction. The most famous example is the so-called R&R paper claiming to show that a 90% debt to GDP ratio was some kind of tipping point. That paper was used as the basis of all sorts of calls for austerity right in the middle of a deep recession - exactly the worst possible thing to do!

In America, states are not left to fend for themselves in the way countries are in the Euro. Greece, Ireland, and Spain would simply not be let happen in America, but we did let them happen in Europe, and we should be ashamed of that.

The large nations in Europe, especially Germany & France, do not seem to want to play fair and run the Euro for everyone's benefit - they want to gain all the advantages, and let others suffer the disadvantages. I guess it's understandable that nations be selfish, but that attitude bodes poorly for the union!

B.

 

[Frenchgerman]

http://anon.projectarchive.net/?htt...t-en-finir-avec-l-austerite_4614000_3234.html


Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Price in Economics, on 'You have to stop austerity' (it's a video clip in English)

 

[gb2000ie]

So basically it would have been Germany's responsibility to tell Greece that they are not allowed to take part in that union, while Greece still tried to blackmail its way in? Great, would have made us look less like the bully, I guess :rofl:

Don't be so daft - the valid criticisms of the project should have been been taken more serisouly, so that when the inevitable happened, it could be dealt with properly instead of exploding into a decade-long crisis!

It is funny how free democracies suddenly are not held responsible for their actions, because they followed the wrong fortunetellers (and let's face it - that is what economists are. They are as much scientists as astrologists or homeopaths.)

Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all. There is plenty of good fact-based economics out there, and the warnings being sounded were well grounded in fact. It's FAR too easy to just throw up our hands and pretend we are powerless. That way, nothing is anyone's fault, it's just shit that happened!

This has less to do with "deserving to suffer" but much more with taking the responsibility for one's actions. As I see it, of all responsible players Greece is the last left after the bail.out (named that way because the banks got bailed out, of course, and not Greece).

The people suffering in Greece are not the elite who managed the country poorly, but the ordinary Greeks. Pretending their suffering is somehow deserved, and that all this is some kind of morality play with German as a paragon of virtue is ridiculous.

Making millions of people suffer needlessly is collective punishment taken to a whole new level!

Here's an alternative view of Saint Germany: http://anon.projectarchive.net/?htt...opinion/paul-krugman-being-bad-europeans.html

This is mighty hypothetical, as the USA are a much more homogeneous union than the states of Europe. The currency union grew too fast. Then again, who would have the responsibility to keep it from growing that way? It is impossible to ask for a united europe and then hit the brakes the moment small countries want to be a part of it.

If Europe wants a single currency, it has to put in place everything needed to underpin it, including mechanisms for mitigating the problems caused by the single currency. None of the institutions of Europe did their homework on the single currency. Not the ECB, not the European Commission, and not the Council of Ministers. A bunch of unelected bureaucrats implements a currency union badly, so millions must suffer. Sorry, but that's not a good enough answer IMO.

Europe needs to learn form this crisis, because if we don't, we'll be doomed to repeat the last decade again.

Stability was one of the foundations of the new currency. I don't think it is really unfair to insist on doing with the currency what it was meant for.

You think the Euro has been creating stability? Europe has lurched from crisis to crisis for the best part of a decade now! What on earth kind of stability is that?

If the currency was supposed to bring stability, it is a total failure!

While there clearly is a sad lack of solidarity, there is also a worrying sense of entitlement for that kind of solidarity.

I totally disagree.

Greece has prostrated itself for the best part of a decade - imposing staggeringly harsh austerity in the middle of a recession, and somehow, that is just not recognised at all.

Just look at the graph here: http://anon.projectarchive.net/?http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/comparative-austerity/

I live in Ireland, our "tiny" austerity is an absolutely bitch to live under, just look at what the Greeks managed to impose!

It seems you just can't destroy racist stereotypes with facts!

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

http://anon.projectarchive.net/?htt...t-en-finir-avec-l-austerite_4614000_3234.html


Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Price in Economics, on 'You have to stop austerity' (it's a video clip in English)

This is a great video - thanks for sharing!

If people don't want to sit through it all, the bit on the Euro and Greece starts at about 06:50.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

I get this when trying to follow 'refhide' links:

:worried:

No need - just 'security software' getting carried away with itself.

B.

 

[gb2000ie]

And if something happens to my computer, will you pay my bill for repairs?

Anyway I reported the links so if you don't to fix them I guess a mod will. Why not make life easier for everyone and just fix them yourself?

err ... there is nothing broken!

I'm using a safe and forum-approved anonymiser just like we have to when ever we post a link.

Your computer is telling your porky pies!

B.